Poor instructions?

[shihawk]

We have all been there when starting ,even if you where used to building plastics the lack of instructions on many kits can be very offputting . This site is probably the saviour of many first time builders myself included ,but you must not be afraid to ask even the simpliest question as someone here has already been there and done that and are usually only to happy to share their experience . I would also agree with others that books such as Ship Modeling Simplified and others are a great way to learn the basics , I t also has a very usefull glossary explaining all the nautical terms usually needed to understand limited instructions or even fellow builders ?

[trippwj]

Good thread here, jazzchip. Thanks for asking your question!

 

Like you, I had no familiarity with working with wood when I started. I also did not find MSW and MSB until some time after I started. I share the frustrations of many over poorly written instructions. One model has been kept on a dark dusty shelf for nearly 3 years, partly built, because the instructions are so poor. A shame, really, because it is a subject I really want to buils!

 

For me, devining from a set of line drawings what I should do next (let alone how to build the next piece) is akin to asking someone to bake pompadour pudding from a picture (ask nicely and I'll send you the recipe). It is not intuitive to everyone.

[skipper1947]

Sometimes the drawings are not any good either.

 

I struggled with one where most parts supplied were larger than the dimensions listed on the plan (or too large for the hull), one sheet of the plans did not agree with a second sheet, the rigging in the photos did not agree with the rigging on the rigging sheet, and the keel supplied in the kit was not designed the same as that shown in the instructions.  I think that about covers the issues, it has been a while.. 

 

Skip

[jazzchip]

I thought of something last evening and I'd like to offer it up for discussion. The idea will not help me because, if it is adopted, by the time it is I will have either left out of frustration or acquired the entry level skills that one would need to complete the easier models.

I assume that there are many new members who lack the skills necessary to be successful at modeling. We will never know because they don't share this information but I assume that you can understand why someone may not want to admit a lack of basic knowledge to a population of 20K+ members.

If you've ever taught a class of adults, you know that rarely will you get one of them to admit a lack of understanding of what you've said and that's in front of a relatively few people.

How about creating a squad of volunteers who make themselves available to newbies? Communication would be through personal mail rather than through the larger forums.

-I believe that we would get more new members staying longer because they will have more success.

-New members will form closer and more trusting relationships will select members and will be less hesitant about asking questions.

-I believe that it will bring the overall group even closer.

 

Volunteer members should be individuals who enjoy teaching, a more patient than most and really want to mentor others.Perhaps there could be a listing of volunteers to the squad will their expertise and why they want to help others. There is much more to work out in terms of details but I wanted to offer this idea to see if there is interest.

Jazzchip

[jbshan]

Jazzchip, the first thing is to simply ask, whether the question seems idiotic to the asker, or embarassing, or revealing of the ignorance thereof, whether there is a 'mentorship program' or not.  If beginner questions wind up being done privately, other beginners who don't know perhaps even what questions to ask, which ones are important, will have to ask them all over again each time.  Just ask; there's no stupid question.  I have seen examples where the builder has gone their own way and 'painted themselves into a corner' and now it's harder for them to get out, and harder to help them because the proper answer must begin 'tear out the last six months work'.  That could be really discouraging.

I would advise getting the books that show you what was really done in the day, at least in combination with those that merely show you short cuts.  Sometimes you have to go with the kit, even though it's designed poorly, because they have made things align with some proprietary (bad word, but best I can do) technique and you'd have to basically scratch build the thing otherwise.  Find out what's real practice and then the quality of the instructions or plans won't matter as much, in fact you'll find yourself going 'off the leash' to the point that you use the kit mostly for materials.

Soap box returned for the next rant.

[skipper1947]

I hesitated here, because I don't want to start a debate Joel; but I think Jazzchip was referring to those who would not otherwise ask anything. Telling them to "simply ask, whether the question seems idiotic to the asker, or embarrassing, or revealing of the ignorance thereof,"  would probably not make them any less shy.

 

Those who are not too shy or embarrassed would presumably ask away in public so this would not affect them.

 

Just my two cents worth. I will get off the soap box now.

 

Skip

Edited November 29, 2015 by skipper1947

[justsayrow]

Jazzchip, check out our parent organization's mentor program: http://www.thenrg.org/nrg-mentoring-program-program.php

[jazzchip]

my experience with adults in learning situations is that they are hesitant to display their lack of knowledge. Given that, saying "just ask" is ineffective. 

Ask yourself how you react in situations in which you lack knowledge. This is not unique to modelers. Very young children who do not yet have a sense of self are far more apt to acknowledge their lack of understanding but once the ego begins development there is a growing hesitancy to admit not knowing or understanding.

[jazzchip]

Jazzchip, check out our parent organization's mentor program: http://www.thenrg.org/nrg-mentoring-program-program.php

That's great. I was not aware of that. Is that shown in a prominent place? 

[Cathead]

jazzchip, for what it's worth, I am offering an "intro to wooden model building course" through my local adult-education center this spring. The goal is to focus on hands-on demonstrations and experiences with basic aspects of aircraft and ship modelling, right down to having a few open kit boxes for people to peruse and practicing how to bend and shape wood strips.

 

My background in education tells me that many people are visual or experiential learners, whereas modelling instructions and books are almost all text-learning. Many people would benefit greatly from 1/2 hour with someone else live, which is what I'm hoping to achieve in my class.

 

I'm far from a master modeler, but have built enough to be able to pass along a lot of basic help. I also intend to display a number of my models and have students critique them, a sort of "what did I do wrong" session where we can all discuss better ways of doing things.

 

I hope it goes well.

[jazzchip]

jazzchip, for what it's worth, I am offering an "intro to wooden model building course" through my local adult-education center this spring. The goal is to focus on hands-on demonstrations and experiences with basic aspects of aircraft and ship modelling, right down to having a few open kit boxes for people to peruse and practicing how to bend and shape wood strips.

 

My background in education tells me that many people are visual or experiential learners, whereas modelling instructions and books are almost all text-learning. Many people would benefit greatly from 1/2 hour with someone else live, which is what I'm hoping to achieve in my class.

 

I'm far from a master modeler, but have built enough to be able to pass along a lot of basic help. I also intend to display a number of my models and have students critique them, a sort of "what did I do wrong" session where we can all discuss better ways of doing things.

 

I hope it goes well.

That's outstanding. You are doing more to increase interest in modeling than anyone I know. I wish you great success. I hope you will let us know how the class went. 

Jazzchip

[twintrow]

You can generally tell where a manufacturers priority lies by looking at the instructions.  They are interested in manufacturing for money, or for the enjoyment of the hobbyists.  The latter because they probably are hobbyists themselves.   Take any of the Passaro builds from Model Expo vs any other manufacturer.  Proves the point.  So why buy from folks that are only interested in units sold rather than the customer. Admittedly ME could improve on the non-Passaro kits and for the most part they are better now than 5 years ago.  

 

IMMHO

Tom

[skipper1947]

Thanks for the tip Tom. I have heard Passaro mentioned several times. Is there a handy way to know which kits are his? The Model Expo sites appears off-line at the moment, so I couldn't check around there.  They do have their 55% sale going on now, so this might be a good time to investigate his kits.

 

Skip

[Dan Vadas]

Hi Skip,

 

Chuck Passarro is one of the Administrators of this site (if you didn't know already). Apart from designing kits for Model Shipways he has his own company, Syren Ship Models, which makes "kits" for the more advanced builders and supplies a large range of excellent quality fittings etc. He's nearly always available on this site as well, so I'm sure he will answer your question shortly .

 

Here's one of his Kits : 18th Century Longboat  presented as a Build Log on this site.

 

  Danny

[Cathead]

After reading this thread, it occurs to me that I should bring a few copies of "good" and "bad" kit instructions to my class, so people get first-hand experience with the importance of that aspect of kit-choosing. I've seen so many examples on this board of people turned off by modelling by instructions, maybe I can head a bit of that off. Of course, that assumes anyone signs up for the class in the first place. 

[mikiek]

I feel for you jazzchip! And I can relate. I am on my first build as well. No other modeling or woodworking experience. I went with a Model Shipways kit (Niagara) because after some research it seemd like they did a relatively decent job with instructions. Well if this is decent I would hate to see poor!

 

The instructions (at least there are some) are at too high a level - they just glaze over a lot of steps. The plans use the description "typical" to describe a lot of  structures. If you have never seen one before, what is typical?

 

I am very grateful to the folks here at MSW. There are numerous build logs for Niagara and I have been going mainly by their pix.

[Cathead]

Mikiek, in fairness to MS, the Niagara is hardly a beginner's model for someone with no prior experience. I do think instructions for kits of that complexity assume the modeler has some knowledge/experience with what they're doing. I think people really should start with a basic open boat or something before they tackle a fully rigged, armed brig or ship.

 

Really, it's a lot like cooking. If you try to tackle a complex French recipe when your prior kitchen experience is limited to oatmeal and ramen, you shouldn't expect the the recipe to walk you through concepts like browning, deglazing, or julienne. It's fair for that recipe to make some assumptions about the cooks' knowledge.

[jbshan]

Cathead, I like your cooking analogy.  Sometimes the answer to a simple seeming question isn't possible to put into a few lines on a forum or email.  Sometimes the answer is 'get this book' and learn a lot about this or that, then come back with your question, which you may now be able to answer for yourself.  As a 'boiling water beginner' I did Niagara as a first model for the reasons Mike states, and got flummoxed here and there, but was able to work most of them out with the help of (another) Q&A forum, at the same time building up my library.  I used some 'bondo' under the paint to fix the worst boo-boos.  You can see my second hull, Lexington, which is done bright, by clicking on my avatar.  I soon went off the leash with that one.

[skipper1947]

Chuck Passarro is one of the Administrators of this site (if you didn't know already). Apart from designing kits for Model Shipways he has his own company, Syren Ship Models, which makes "kits" for the more advanced builders and supplies a large range of excellent quality fittings etc. He's nearly always available on this site as well, so I'm sure he will answer your question shortly .

 

 

Thanks Dan. I must plead guilty of ignorance regarding Mr. Passarro. I had heard the name mentioned in other discussions, but assumed he must be a mystical figure living in far-off Guru Land. I had no idea he was on this site.

 

Skip

[GuntherMT]

Skip, he is "Chuck" on this forum, and you can see his current in-progress build log of Cheerful here - http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/8131-hm-cutter-cheerful-1806-148-scale-by-chuck/

[MrBlueJacket]

John, thank you so much for your thoughts on the matter. One problem for me is that at the basic level where I currently reside, the questions become quite basic. It's not "how do you open the box?" but it's close. BlueJacket provides someone connected with the company who will answer questions but in truth it's a bit uncomfortable for me to have to ask extremely basic questions. Plus, I'm afraid at some point he'll stop taking my calls.

My frustration not withstanding, I really appreciate your wise advice. I'm not giving up but it will take a lot longer than I originally thought to complete this.

Jazzchip 

Hi Jazzchip,

 

BlueJacket's help line is staffed by Charlie Cook, who is the most gentle and patient of people to deal with.  He will never refuse to answer your calls and questions, even if you asked before but forgot the answer. Of course, you can always call me, the BlueJacket Buck stops on my desk!

 

We have several kits designed specifically for the newbie, with instructions to match. For example, our regular kits may say "strike the waterline" but our first-time kits devote a whole page, plus 3 diagrams and 2 photos on HOW to do the waterline.

 

Good luck,

 

Nic Damuck,

owner, blueJacket Shipcrafters

[jazzchip]

Nic,

Thanks. My dealing with you has been quite pleasant so far. I appreciate your comments. My concern is for Mr. Cook's sanity. I fear that a few calls from me and he may want to leave the country. I will say that his not having a computer makes sending him anything far more time consuming. 

Thank you again for your interest. I hope the new modelers notice that the owner of BlueJacket took the time to contact me. This shows a level of customer service that most companies don't offer.

Warmest regards,

Jazzchip

[jazzchip]

I feel for you jazzchip! And I can relate. I am on my first build as well. No other modeling or woodworking experience. I went with a Model Shipways kit (Niagara) because after some research it seemd like they did a relatively decent job with instructions. Well if this is decent I would hate to see poor!

 

The instructions (at least there are some) are at too high a level - they just glaze over a lot of steps. The plans use the description "typical" to describe a lot of  structures. If you have never seen one before, what is typical?

 

I am very grateful to the folks here at MSW. There are numerous build logs for Niagara and I have been going mainly by their pix.

Mikiek, I've compared the experience to being put in a foreign country with no language skills and no knowledge of where you are. There feels as if there is no "step 1." When I read "squaring the sternpost" or "establish the fore and aft centerline" there are long moments of staring at the page followed by doing something else besides modeling. I guess that I can't expect the writer of instructions to write down to my level but without basic knowledge or someone nearby with that knowledge I don't know how one advances. You were gutsy to take on that model. I'm looking for a model consisting of two pieces that need gluing and hoping I don't have it stuck to my chest at the end of the process.

[Cathead]

without basic knowledge or someone nearby with that knowledge I don't know how one advances

 

 

Read books. Study websites. Look for modelling videos online or in stores/libraries. Experiment by building your own basic models, or try assembling "mock" pieces to see what it's like. Start with very basic kits rather than something pretty but complicated. Really, it sometimes seems that too many beginning modelers are like someone who wants to learn German and so picks up a copy of Goethe in the original because it's impressive, then complains that Goethe used fancy words and they don't know how to translate them.

 

With most models, but especially nautical ones, it's worth knowing something about the subject as well as the model technique. Why would anyone want to build a complex ship model and NOT inherently want to learn about what they're doing? Half the joy is learning about the subject material, not just assembling a random wooden thing. Before I ever built my first nautical  model, I read multiple books on both the history of ship design in general and the techniques of wooden modelling in particular. Some of them I read twice. If I run across a word or concept I don't know, my reaction is "ooh, I get to find out what this is and how it works!", not "I can't believe they don't define every term!" This might've been harder to achieve 20 years ago, but the internet now makes this possible for almost everyone.

 

To me, anyway, most of the joy in model-building is the doing, not the product. While (and usually before) I'm working on a model, I'm actively engaged in learning everything I can about it. Once it's done, it just sits there passively. 

 

Some instructions really do stink. But the purpose of instructions is to guide the assembly of the model, not to teach the modeler about modeling, in the same way that a recipe is intended to guide the preparation of a dish, not to teach the cook about cooking. Unless it is very specifically designed and described as a "learning" recipe or kit, it shouldn't be expected to do more than that.

[skipper1947]

Dont blame the stove because you dinner is burnt, maybe it is the cook  just saying!

 

Not to be picky, but I am not sure that this will encourage new comers to ask questions.

 

We are individuals, and as such, probably come at this hobby with differing perspectives. There may be those who, after working all day; just want to fiddle around with little bits of wood for relaxation. Ship model kits should not be regarded as different than any other kind of kit. It doesn't have to teach you the details of ship building, but at least should be clear in telling you to glue stick A into hole B.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to argue. I hope this is viewed as a polite discourse.

Skip

Edited December 1, 2015 by skipper1947

[dgbot]

The main problem is obtaining a library as these books are diverse and can be expensive. When I am able I will have to go through what my sister was able to pack.  I hope nothing was left behind.  But my advice is to buy the books listed and they will help get to the starting point.  As a famous person once said the only stupid question is the one not asked.  We have had club members who would build their models and did it for the pleasure of working with their hands and others who studied every aspect of the vessel they were building both were encouraged.  Just go at your own pace and comfort level.  And when you have a question just ask and you will be answered.

David B

[jbshan]

I have found if you understand a level or two deeper than you intend to wind up, the final product will look more as if it could function than if you take some short cut.  To go back to the kitchen, you don't need to grow your own grain and mill it, but it might help to understand the different wheats available so you choose cake flour for your sponge cake and hard winter wheat for your loaf of bread.

[JRB9019]

The main problem is obtaining a library as these books are diverse and can be expensive. When I am able I will have to go through what my sister was able to pack.  I hope nothing was left behind.  But my advice is to buy the books listed and they will help get to the starting point.  As a famous person once said the only stupid question is the one not asked.  We have had club members who would build their models and did it for the pleasure of working with their hands and others who studied every aspect of the vessel they were building both were encouraged.  Just go at your own pace and comfort level.  And when you have a question just ask and you will be answered.

David B

 

Re expensive books as mentioned above, I obviously don't know what it's like where you live, but I have been able to borrow many of the 'standard set' of books that are generally referred to here, from my local library.

 

That way, I can check them out before deciding whether to buy or not ........ or putting them on my Christmas list ........ or at the very least having a look around the Internet via some of the major Purchasing sites (no names)......

.

[dgbot]

Unfortunately those books are not usually found in out libraries.  Plus I have found them interesting to go over again and again.

David B

[flying_dutchman2]

My 2 cents.

I did the Bounty from Constructo and these instructions helped me a lot. Large CAD drawings, color picture booklet of step by step on how to build the ship and the English, Dutch and German instructions were very good. There was French and Spanish as well but I am not so fluent in that.

 

The Royal Yacht Mary from Mamoli were horrible. NO CAD just hand drawings. Crappy walnut strips.

 

The Catboat from Bluejacket is skimpy and very few pictures. So far I have more pictures than the booklet itself. There are spelling mistakes and I am taking notes. If they want my pictures they can have those as well to help the next person.

 

When I built a ship I scour the NET for other websites with builds. Many sites in Europe usually have something that will help your build as well as MSW.

 

Marc