19th Century 31-ton Revenue Cutter by CharlieZardoz - Scale 1/64 - building as USRC Active based off Doughty plans and BlueJacket Shipcrafters kit

[CharlieZardoz]

Interesting! I mean miniwax wipe-on poly seems sort of like a lacquer or are they different? I would not use an oil or stain for holly it just doesn't look right. I suppose I should ask around what people put on their holly decks... if anything.  Btw here is the planking pattern I was mentioning, I believe this is the right way using the red line as center.

Edited January 8, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[Roger Pellett]

I have never used Minwax Poly and have never used any wipe on finish so I can't comment. As discussed elsewhere, an advantage of a true laquer is that it dissolves itself. That is a second coat actually dissolves the coat beneath. Varnishes, either polyurethane and alkyd resins cure and become chemically resistant to the next coat. These very different characteristics are either a good or bad thing depending on what you wish to accomplish. If you are trying to repair a minor Boo Boo, an over spray with laquer will blend in to the previous coat. On the other hand, when using laquer based paints, you do not want adjacent colors to react with each other.

 

See Julie Mo's build log for the J Boat Ebdeavour for a discussion of laquer.

 

My model was unrigged and built from three naturally finished woods- pear, box, and holly. When I finished building it, I hung it from a hook and sprayed it all over with clear flat laquer. It has just passed 1/3 of its 100 year lifetime and is holding up well.

 

Roger

Edited January 8, 2017 by Roger Pellett

[CharlieZardoz]

That makes sense Roger especially if you are talking about coating the wood vs penetrating and altering the wood which is what Ive done here. I can say you can make a model using all these approaches and come up with great and varied results at least thats what im seeing. So with that in mind what brand lacquer do you recommend. Perhaps I should try it out and add it to my list. I did try sanding sealer but I had no idea how to use it lol.

Edited January 8, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[CharlieZardoz]

Two more quick updates. Ive started looking into construction of the deck furniture. Made measurements on a plan (altered from the bluejacket kit), then put a prototype cabin in place. I may make the real one with the laser to be more precise not sure. But not bad and the cannon pic shows scale (need to find alacart caronnades) pew pew!

[Omega1234]

Hi Charlie

 

Well done. Interestingly, the carronnade on the deck, when compared to the silver crew member, gives a good indication of just how big they were. It's certainly larger than I thought.

 

Nice job so far, overall.

 

Cheers

 

Patrick

Edited January 9, 2017 by Omega1234

[Roger Pellett]

Charlie: Deck Finish. Several possibilities come to mind. The most obvious is Testor's Dullcoat, available at hobby shops and big box craft stores. This stuff comes in a spray can and is foolproof. You might also look into hardware store spray can clear finishes even though they may be branded as enamels, they behave and smell like lacquers. Further afield, on his USS Essex CA-9 post, daddyrabbit is discussing use of a sprayable floor finish. We recently had a maple floor installed in our family room. It was finished with a matt finish floor finish. I believe that this is a water based polyurethane. It is perfectly transparent. I think that this would be similar to the material that daddyrabbit is talking about.

 

Roger

[CharlieZardoz]

Thank you will look into it! But how may I ask is that different from the miniwax polyurethane?

[dvm27]

I don't use any finish on my holly decks and the wood may tone down a bit over the years but still looks like holly.

 

I only apply "caulking" to one side of my planks as doing both makes it a bit too prominent to my eyes. Test out a gang of short planks side by side, one with ink applied to only one side and one with it applied to both sides. See which one pleases your eye the best.

[Eric W]

Charlie, I am really impressed. Neet to see a kit I am quite familiar with, and the work you are doing with it. Very cool!

[mtaylor]

Charlie,

 

The polyurethane seems to give a yellowish tint to wood to my eye where as dullcoat is clear.  

[CharlieZardoz]

Well everyone a lot of this is a matter of preference. Some people I've seen like their models to be essentially wood sculptures, basically a form to display the beauty of wood. Models where coloring is very uniform and clean, nothing wrong with this approach it's just preference and reflects that traditional way of building. Then there are models which emphasize realism in action. A lot of these models have a rugged and weathered look sometimes coloring is exaggerated to create false shadows like a scene from a film. This is sort of how I like to build if at the end my fingers are covered in paint, putty and lacquer then I'm happy, like a 3d painting. So the holly turning a bit yellow and uneven when I'm done will actually work well in this approach (though it's dark as it is so have to be careful). I added a few examples of what I'd like to accomplish as time and experience allows these revenue cutter models looks much like what I am hoping to achieve. Also if anyone knows plastic models and is familiar with Kostas he is truly amazing in how he adds all this energy to his builds that resin water I plan on learning how to do that!  

[shipmodel]

Hi Charlie -

 

Just got a chance to review the last page or so.  Wow, lots of thought going into your artistic choices.  The experiments on wood species and finish will be referred to often, I'm sure.  They certainly would make for a top notch Shop Note in the Journal.

 

My two cents on some of your questions and techniques that worked for me:

 

   - both 'naked' and finished holly look good, but look best if they match in tone the surrounding bulwarks and deck pieces.  In your last two photos both decks look good, although one is much lighter than the other.  But both sit well with the rest of the model.

 

  - If you are finishing the deck, just make sure that the ink in your marker is not dissolved by the finish you use. I had to scrap a whole deck once before I learned that lesson.

 

  - the planking diagram you are using is very good, but has a small problem.  Just ahead of the main hatch there are butt joints indicated that are about a foot from the coaming.  No shipyard would have created an extra leakage point, just used a longer plank.  Don't be rigidly locked to the drawing if it does not match common woodworking sense.

 

  - if you are scoring the butt joints into the veneer, try highlighting the groove with a sharp pencil.  This has to be sealed to prevent smearing, so it will not work if you are leaving the deck unfinished.  I have used a similar technique for the plank fasteners using a dull mechanical pencil.  I hold it vertically on the desired spot and give it a quick spin, making a round mark.

 

Really looking forward to seeing how your models evolve.

 

Dan     

 

[dvm27]

Charlie - check out this link for the cutter Alert built by a Japanese modeler as an example of a realistic diorama. It's quite extraordinary. Scroll down to the middle of the page:

 

https://www.theropetokyo.org/%E5%B1%95%E7%A4%BA%E4%BC%9A%E4%BD%9C%E5%93%81%E9%9B%86/%E7%AC%AC32%E5%9B%9E%E5%B1%95-2007%E5%B9%B4/%E7%AC%AC32%E5%9B%9E%E5%B1%95-3-4/

[druxey]

The garboard should not rise up the stem like that. See the planking tutorials (pinned) on this site.  Revising this will get rid of those pointy-ended strakes and drop strakes!

[CharlieZardoz]

Ok thank you everybody!

 

So first, Greg that's a lovely model right there of the HMS Alert of 1777!

 

druxey yes I am aware the lines have already been erased just haven't gotten around to redrawing them just yet

 

And Dan I believe this image is what you mean in the areas I pointed the silly tiny pieces of plank which follow the edges to the hatches. While the diagonal flow is correct (though I'm thinking backwards) I'm only using this as a basic guide as the planks I'm using will be thinner than on this diagram (1/8" vs 9/64") which was just an easier width, therefore my model has 18 planks across the deck vs 16.  But this brings up an interesting question regarding plank length. That Dilligence model you worked on has plank lengths of 2.7" (14' to scale) the diagram below has lengths of 4" (21' to scale). Is there a standard plank length? I'm feeling for this model they shouldn't be much longer than the red line and really there is only 3 to 5 planks that even need planking breaks in the areas I bracketed.

 

I agree a wood and finish shop note would be highly useful

 

The ink marker vs pencil, I believe you use pencil for me it wouldn't color the wood but maybe the led isn't soft enough? Is there a led type preferred maybe I should try again. And Greg caulking only one side sounds interesting I may see how I like that. Same question regarding the butt joints I'm not sure what approach will work best but we can discuss next time I'm abouts.

 

Anywhoo that's that now onto a few new updates....

[CharlieZardoz]

So basically I am preparing for another laser run. This time the parts will be made from cherry and holly woods ie the keel and rudder etc. In the diagram I did some measurements of how big everything should be. The hatch covers will just be strips of wood of the appropriate lengths so they don't need laser work but the cabin is a complicated wedge shaped thing with windows and a door. To help me I downloaded and rescaled the old Italian plans of Alert to give me a basic idea of shape and construction of these parts, the cabin needs to match the camber of the deck. Also to help me is Dirk's "Dubz" very detail picasa construction images of his krick Alert. The holly is for the deck coaming for that I am going to take the scan of the hull from above and just render those into the program that way it fits perfectly to the hull

 

I'm, also in the market for an appropriate scale carronade if anyone has any suggestions?

Edited January 11, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[CharlieZardoz]

So the keel needed a few modifications. I decided to separate the little sprit piece in the front as I noticed in diagrams of the ship Louisiana (from the color scheme a bit back). This allows me two things. One I can vary the color from the keel which is black and have that piece natural wood to make it fancy. And more functionally I realized the masts are raised about 4 degrees and while the keels take that into account when the model comes together it might not work out and if that happens I can just redo the front piece rather than have to do the whole keel.

 

 

[CharlieZardoz]

Hi guys. So today I picked up a caldercraft 12 pounder carronade kit which has a barrel of 13.5mm the correct size for the ship. My question is this is from likely the Ballahoo kit and dated 1775ish. Did 12 pounder carronade barrels change much from 1775 to 1818? If not what about the carriage?

[Cathead]

Charlie,

 

I don't know about the barrel, but that carriage almost certainly won't be right. As far as I know, these cutters all had their carronades mounted on central swivel rings, so that the whole carriage including the slide rotated around a central point. The carriage in the image above has a pivot point in front of the barrel, meaning it's intended to be mounted against the edge of the hull, swiveling a limited distance right/left, as on the Constitution for example. At a minimum it seems that you'd need to take off that front pivot point and adapt the rest of the carriage to the full ring.

[CharlieZardoz]

Well yeah I'll definitely make the unique carriage from scratch I can see it just won't do. The barrel itself has some variation but it generally looks acceptable. The main issue is finding a carronade 14-15mm or so in size as the ship used a 12 pounder so at that size options (and detailing) is limited. However look at some of the revenue cutter kits and what do we see? Krick is of course the most detailed but the main concern I have is that only the corel ranger has that pin looking thing in the back. The rest have only the hook. Now adding a hook to the carronade I purchased would be easy, as would drilling in a teeny powder hole up top and whatever that bump in the front is. But removing the pin would mean removing the whole back which sounds like a pain so anyone know if the corel kit with its pin cannon was correct? If not aside from renting a metalwork lathe and making my own are there other options out there for teeny weeny carronades anyone is aware of? I've already checked corwall uk. 

Edited January 12, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[Cathead]

That "pin" is the elevating screw, which is used to set the angle of the gun's trajectory. It's threaded such that turning it slowly raises or lowers the muzzle. Some carronades used these instead of the chocks you commonly see under long guns. The Krick photo shows a chock instead of a pin; I can't tell for the AL photo. My understanding is that chocks are the earlier approach (such as on HMS Victory) whereas screws came into use later, but I couldn't tell you which is "more" right for this model. The Tilley drawing of USRC Louisiana clearly shows a chock on the larger gun but obscures the rear of the smaller gun.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the "hook" and the "bump up front"?

[CharlieZardoz]

Here I pointed to the hook and bump. If the pin came into use later then that is a good thing, however I see the chock on the Louisiana cannon so maybe they are meant to have them.

Edited January 12, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[Cathead]

Your "bump" looks like a gunsight, which some guns had and some didn't. Notice, on the Krick image, that the sight on the muzzle lines up with another reference point toward the breech (rear). The "hook" is where the breeching rope passes through; this is the heavy line that controls the recoil. The Corel casting doesn't have this, which is annoying. I just wrapped my rope around the breech itself, as was done on some long guns.

[CharlieZardoz]

Gluing a breech hook to the carronade is no problem imo and I can add a teeny gunsight in the front using a metal wire. That's the plan anyways this carronade is eensie weensie 13.5 mm I'm going to assume that unless someone tells me otherwise that having a pin screw is a wholly acceptable for this model

Edited January 21, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[jbshan]

Carronades came in during the Late Unpleasantness between the American Colonies as then were and Britain.  By the 1780s they were becoming numerous on RN ships.  The earliest ones were on trucked carriages, with trunnions on the middle of the barrel and quions at the rear for elevation.  The latest ones had a lug on the bottom for a pin to hold the barrel to a sliding mount and the elevating screw at the rear.  Additionally, the later ones had an extended muzzle to take the blast farther from the rigging when firing through the bulwarks between the shrouds.

That may help you date any barrel/mount setup you encounter.  Lavery, 'Arming and Fitting' covers these details.

[CharlieZardoz]

Chapelle shows these ships with the -er "quoins" on his plan for the revenue cutters. So does the Mamoli and Krick models, but Corel ranger shows the screw design. Yet the Bluejacket kit has a different design for the truck (with wheels) and the corel doesn't have the "extended muzzle" while Krick and Alert does. Also Chapelle shows Fair Rosamond with a pin/screw design dated 1833 and caldercraft has the pin design for it's hms Pickle and hms Ballahoo of 1802... so the bottom line is I'm quite confused. Not in what you are saying jbshan but in how these kits are all over the map with armament. All I really need to know is when was the pin/screw invented at least then I will know if it was in service by 1818-1825. Guess some research is in order.

Edited January 13, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[Landlubber Mike]

Hey Charlie, looking fantastic.  Lots of interesting planning and techniques, thanks for sharing!  

 

I've also been doing a lot of experimentation with various woods, stains and finishes on my various logs.  I haven't tried holly yet, but I've read that holly does tend to take a yellowish tone with certain finishes.  I think a quick search of logs on here and you can find out what finishes people tried.  I would think that most oils and wipe-on-poly would yellow the holly.  I wonder if a varnish would have the same result?  One thing I've found is that certain woods turn almost black when the end grain is oiled (e.g., redheart).  However, when I applied varnish to the end grain of redheart, the color of the redheart was preserved nicely. It and other finishes like lacquer are certainly worth a look.

 

Queens is my home town too by the way!

[CharlieZardoz]

Haha it's a nice place to live!  I may try varnish and lacquer as well and add that to the list. Any brands you recommend? The holly was extremely grey almost green so a bit of yellow was actually a good thing. The poly gave the holly a basswoodlike color though tung and natural stain was too much for the wood.  With cherry the oils look nice, boxwood and pear it was 50/50. But it all gave me an idea of what approach I plan on using I mean mixing stains with paint is another option, so there is more experimenting to be had.

[Landlubber Mike]

I grew up in Bayside

 

I'm probably not the best person to ask about varnishes and lacquers.  I've never tried lacquer.  For varnish, I bought a small bottle of Vallejo varnish.  They make paints and finishes for wargaming miniature figurines and models, and are very high quality.  The paints and the varnish go on very thin and easily.  I'm avoiding paints on my larger scale models, but I've been using them on ship-in-bottle models that I work on here and there.

 

If you're looking at stains, I've really liked working with General Finishes products which you can find at Woodcraft.  They go on very evenly, no smell, easy clean up.  I recently used their blue stain on boxwood to good effect (at least I like it) on my Pegasus build.  I also used GF Antique Oak on pear to get a nice deep brown look (interestingly though, if you use that stain on a light wood like maple, it turns the wood a grayish color).

 

For finishes generally, I really liked using Tung Oil - they sell at "Tung Oil Finish" which is only partially made up with tung oil, but I use 100% tung oil.  Minwax wipe-on-poly is another one I like.  I did some tests with my Badger, and thought the tung oil barely edged out the wipe-on-poly.  A year or two later, I looked at the same test piece, and really couldn't tell the difference between the two.  The oiled finish really brings wood to life in my opinion, especially on woods like walnut (I'm sure cherry is another that becomes very rich).  It's too bad that walnut doesn't have the finer properties of woods like pear and boxwood, because oiled walnut is absolutely gorgeous in my opinion.

[CharlieZardoz]

I was just in Bayside today! Good bagels I'm familiar with Vallejo so will give that a try. The tung, woodcraft and miniwax are all what I used before they seem to be the best (or most preferred) out there. For the lacquer I may try testors and see what I think of those. It may be a case of using certain finishes in certain places on a model and others elsewhere and mix it up. I liked the tung on the cherry more than miniwax, which just made it look dullish.

 

Also I agree about the walnut the color is very nice so hoping cherry will come off similar

Edited January 15, 2017 by CharlieZardoz