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Cocca Veneta by Vivian Galad - Corel - 1:70 - modified


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Hello again, my friends. I´ve come back to show you a new project I intend to see through in less time than the last ones. It´s funny to perceive we may be away from the shipyard for some time, but it still calls us rightly into it´s arms. So, to begin with, a presentation of the kit´s content, followed by impressions and the reason why my title has a "modified" in it.

 

 

The box is a strong one, better than Artesania Latina´s Red Dragon box, with some info in it, pretty default.

 

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On openning it we can see that magic things that makes us happy and going.

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The plans are simple, but precise, there are no much more to say about them. There are lots of castings, all the fittings, a beautiful sailcloth with a venetian flag. The woods seems ok, love their smell - some Mahogany, walnut and lime tree.  Have to say this was the most anticipated model from the ones I´ve bought, since its larger and have a greater rope work - it also goes in the direction I want to move for the next types of ships I want to build. After this one I plan on starting a plank on frame "Nao de Mataró" for which I´ve been researching for quite a good time.

 

About the ship:

 

"Many ships are also referred to as ‘coca’, ‘cocha’ or
‘cocche’. This sounds very similar to the Dutch word
‘kog’ (cog or cock-boat). This is no coincidence. According
to the Florentine chronicler Giovanni Villani
(1277-1348) the first West European cogs arrived in
the Mediterranean Sea in 1304. He writes: “Certain
people from Bayone in Gascogne entered the Strait
of Gibraltar in 1304 as pirates, in their ships called
cogs, and caused huge damage. But the Genoese, the
Venetians and the Catalonians then started copying
the ship.”
So the northern method of building ships was introduced
to the Mediterranean in the 14th century.
What were the differences southern and northern
European shipbuilding? In the Mediterranean ships
were traditionally built with a triangular lateen sail
and a side rudder. The cog on the other hand was
clinker-built, square-rigged, and had a rear rudder.
The Mediterranean and West European shipbuilding
traditions are actually merged in the coca. The coca
is clinker-built with rear rudder, one or two masts,
and square rigged."

 

As the present kit intends to give us a 16th century ship, I begun my research so I could turn it a bit older. I tried to buy a book on the subject, refered to by a member from this distinctive site, but couldn´t either because it was over on Amazon and on the italian online bookstores (I even paid for one, but got the money back - I wanted the book!). So, I decided on researching online as much as I could to fill the gaps - I want it to be a 15th century ship - Already read there are no great changes trough that period of time, but, any help is always welcome. 

 

Other things I´ve got to modify - no castings on windows and doors - those will be wooden made and may have other materials as I see fit to close the gap in time - don´t know if the small boat which cames with it would have existed at the 1400´s, so, maybe it won´t be part of the ship. The crow´s nest is too simple, so, I´ll scratch a new one. Various frames will be cut so I can make room for cabins, cargo holders and such - I´ll try to put some lights on, if I find space - 1-70 scale is a little small for me, but I may get it done. The rudder is plywood, don´t know if I´ll be using it, too.

 

That´s it for the time being. I´ve already started this one 2 years ago, but as things got messed up, had to hold it. Now, I think I can make it to the end.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Hey howya goin Vivian Galad mate, I'll be happy to follow along with this one good luck with her.   :bird-vi: 

Fine, Eddie, thanks! Thinking on moving to your lands, heard architects are needed down there (here things are a little obscure). Just come aboard, friend! We´re only starting!

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33 minutes ago, achuck49 said:

I'm following closely. Your work area is the same size as my will be after we make our move in two weeks. Curious to see if your area is adequate. 

 

Chuck A

Chuck, hope so. I´ll show my set, soon, workspace and all. For now, only that blue workbench and a side table. They are at the side of my computer and tv, cause I moved into a small apartment. As I live alone with my dog and cat, hope it will do. I feel a little cramped, though.

 

 

39 minutes ago, popeye the sailor said:

hello Vivian!   so good to see you've gotten back to the table :)    sounds like you have some definite plans for this ship..........it'll be fun to tag along! ;) 

Yes I have, Popeye! And am really moving forward on this one. Updates coming soon! :D

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2 hours ago, Vivian Galad said:

Fine, Eddie, thanks!

You know Vivian, your one of the few people who know when I say, "hey howya goin" what it means I ring companys in the US or other countries to ask them about there product after I say hey howya goin there is silence on the phone for about 10 seconds they don't know what to say hahaha. Here in Aussie land they know what it means. Where abouts in Australia you thinking of moving to? I'm in Victoria.  :bird-vi:

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32 minutes ago, Eddie said:

You know Vivian, your one of the few people who know when I say, "hey howya goin" what it means I ring companys in the US or other countries to ask them about there product after I say hey howya goin there is silence on the phone for about 10 seconds they don't know what to say hahaha. Here in Aussie land they know what it means. Where abouts in Australia you thinking of moving to? I'm in Victoria.  :bird-vi:

Thought about Canberra, colder. I´m looking trough the immigration site, have to put some papers together, but possibly one of my brothers is going till the end of the year and he will be my scale. I´ll apply for invitation, though. Now, we go where work is ;)

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Hi Vivian,

 

This is a great era to be working with - not enough people make models from this time period.

 

As far as I can see, the 15th-16th century Mediterranean cocca is the same ship as the nave tonda (round ship) and further west would be called a carrack (same ship, different names).

 

I see you're already aware of Woodrat's brilliantly researched Venetian nave tonda, and I'd highly recommend you study his build log carefully if you want to get your 15th century details right. I certainly found several of my own assumptions about carracks had to change in the light of Woodrat's research - for example the shape of the bow - the carrack had much finer lines and a sharper bow than I'd thought. 


It's evident your model is based on the contemporary one below.

590ea1462a5b9_Montenegrocarrackmodel1.thumb.JPG.efeed79b3440110edc1a1ba7afd9b55f.JPG590ea150d7617_Montenegrocarrackmodel2.thumb.JPG.904ac567e8f9239f481ae4b67dac4696.JPG

I haven't seen this one before, and it's very interesting. It's oversimplified and some of the details are incorrect; I expect it's a votive model - these were often donated to a church by a mariner in gratitude for a safe voyage. But it is very evidently a 16th century ship - the four masts and the rig make this certain. Changing it to a 15th century ship might involve a lot of work - perhaps more than it's worth.

 

The Mataró ship is genuinely 15th century, and maybe you should just build this kit as it is rather than try to change it, and then once it's complete start on the Mataró ship .

 

Steven

 

 

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8 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Hi Vivian,

 

This is a great era to be working with - not enough people make models from this time period.

 

As far as I can see, the 15th-16th century Mediterranean cocca is the same ship as the nave tonda (round ship) and further west would be called a carrack (same ship, different names).

 

I see you're already aware of Woodrat's brilliantly researched Venetian nave tonda, and I'd highly recommend you study his build log carefully if you want to get your 15th century details right. I certainly found several of my own assumptions about carracks had to change in the light of Woodrat's research - for example the shape of the bow - the carrack had much finer lines and a sharper bow than I'd thought. 


It's evident your model is based on the contemporary one below.

590ea1462a5b9_Montenegrocarrackmodel1.thumb.JPG.efeed79b3440110edc1a1ba7afd9b55f.JPG590ea150d7617_Montenegrocarrackmodel2.thumb.JPG.904ac567e8f9239f481ae4b67dac4696.JPG

I haven't seen this one before, and it's very interesting. It's oversimplified and some of the details are incorrect; I expect it's a votive model - these were often donated to a church by a mariner in gratitude for a safe voyage. But it is very evidently a 16th century ship - the four masts and the rig make this certain. Changing it to a 15th century ship might involve a lot of work - perhaps more than it's worth.

 

The Mataró ship is genuinely 15th century, and maybe you should just build this kit as it is rather than try to change it, and then once it's complete start on the Mataró ship .

 

Steven

 

 

Steven, thanks for your words. I got a lot of info so I could modify the ship to an earlier century, but maybe u´r right. I follow woodrat´s log and his research is really amazing - saw, too, the work it takes to bring all those data into the real ship. I´ll carefully considerate it. Maybe not so far in modifying the time of the ship, just giving it more detail. The Nao de Mataró I have some plans already - a bigger project though. 

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1 hour ago, gjdale said:

Hey Vivian,

 

Nice to see you've started your new log. If you do move to Canberra, be sure and let me know and I'll make sure the Welcome Mat is run out! 

Grant, sure I´ll let u know if I move. Always depends on some things, but, I´m really seeing into that. Thanks for coming!

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1 hour ago, donrobinson said:

Hey Vivian, good to see you back in the shipbuilding groove again. MarisStella has a fine cog kit, you can see their plans and some pictures at the Modellers Workshop site that might give you some ideas http://modellers-workshop.com/maristella-mar-950-ragusian-cog-xvict-65cm-148-scale-wood-ship-kit/. Check it out

Thanks, Don. Be seeing the link right away.

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Ok, as promised, here comes the update:

 

The main document I´m using to build this kit, and bashing it a little, is Valenti´s dissertation for the Master Arts degree from Texas A&M University, 2009. His work is a reconstruction of the Nave Quadra based on Michael of Rhodes manuscript. He puts forth the origins of the ship type, the Cocca, coming from the Cog, turned vernacular on ship building on mediterranean lands about early 1300´s. The cocca gained room over the other types of ships due to its greater tonnage with fewer men to hand it - it is discussed also that after the plague, 1348, the lack of working force forced the shipbuilding culture from northern Europe over southern. The first cogs would have a main square mast, as those from the north, but soon got a second mast, lateen sail mizzenmast.

 

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(Two-masted Venetian Cocha of 1366, Valenti, 2009) - disegno di Zanetti Girolamo

 

The Cocca is mainly a merchant vessel, usually not gunned. It could boast between two and four decks - at the end of the 16th century could have up to 10 sails "with two square sails hung from the bowsprit, three square sails on both the foremast and the mainmast and a lateen sail on each of the two mizzenmasts" (VALENTI - 2009).

 

The kit´s ship is a Cocca Veneta from around early 16th century, though, this type of ship continued to be used till the 17th. As my main interest are medieval ships, I would like to build a late medieval ship, from before 1490, maybe something between 1450/70. The Michael of Rhodes manuscript dates from that period, which makes me go through it a lot, at least, through other works about it. I´m well aware of the log from Woodrat, building the Nave Tonda and be following it from the beggining, since his ship is really a medieval one. Since I´ve found that the term Nave Tonda may describe not only a Cocca as a Carraca (or carrack) - meaning a round ship for commercial purpose - I´ve devised my plans to stick to the Cocca, traditionally following the line from the cog. The ship as it is will have the lines as the image that follows;

 

590f40dad7cb0_CoccaVeneta.jpg.087869bb3ce9dca342dffcf185e10c75.jpg

Corel´s picture shows us this:

746b6a39d351bb15ad8ea51db52087dc.jpg.48c08ded25b0e5ad72619eb6343e35dc.jpg

Have to say I don´t like those white lines and will be searching if it would be changed. I´m still thinking on changing it to an earlier version, maybe taking out a mast among other things. I´ll be scavenging images, iconography and such. Meanwhile I´m starting to build since I don´t see any major changes on frames and planking - it´s a carvel type ship, rounded at the bow, which will make me have some work bending the wood to fit it. The kit seems to lead me there without too much trouble, but I´m always open to tips and discussing data (thanks again, Steven).

 

Now, here comes my progress, so far:

 

I planned first on opening my decks, always to give space for cabins and such, as I find the lack of details in kits a real pain. In order to do this, I mounted the pieces and searched for all interferences I could see; marked them on plans, marked them on the pieces and got some cutting.

 

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After some glue, could see I would have to be more carefull with angles, since sanding alone wasn´t enough to give that edge. After the first frames were glued, I begun to work on the blocks that came with the kit to help planking the steep bow. That made my hands hurt, they´re still hurting - I tried two processes - to sand it from the start and to cut it before hand. Well, the second process went really faster, but got some minor imperfections due to my inability using the saw.

 

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Then proceeded to glueing more frames till now. Last picture shows my workbench in it´s typical mess.

 

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WP_20150114_008.thumb.jpg.8248e1b28913fff2b7ef8b2403b09f14.jpgWP_20170506_016.thumb.jpg.8e01e940bd4be26b2f6d97c0a05dd19c.jpgIMG-20170506-WA0003.thumb.jpg.845b4df37b97a51b4a2826f33fdee5a5.jpg

WP_20170506_017.thumb.jpg.24cf1340e0576f2a9d072c16cd3ea469.jpg

 

And that´s all, for now. ^^

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi Vivian,

 

You certainly don't need to follow Corel's white painted lines. They don't appear in contemporary paintings of coccas - look particularly at Carpaccio's St Ursula series of paintings for extremely good representations of these vessels. 

 

I think I've read that paper of Valenti - very impressive.

 

And if you want to get rid of a mast and make other changes to make it closer to a late 15th century ship, you could end up with a very good model indeed.

 

You're making good progress with the build, but may I put in a suggestion? I really have trouble with the shape of the bow on the corel model - I don't believe the bow should be inclined backwards as it is. I know it's on the votive model, but I think the modelmaker got it wrong - and Corel have inclined the bow even further. Look at contemporary pictures and I think you'll find a more believable bow shape.

 

The trouble is it might be too difficult to change the model's central "spine" to a better shape at the bow - and you'd probably have to make the foremost bulkhead narrower as well, but you've already glued it in place. I was going to mention this before but wasn't sure if I should, as it might sound too much like criticism. And you've gone ahead so fast I don't know if it could be changed now. 

 

But if you're prepared to do it, I think it would make a more accurate representation of a ship of the time.  

 

Steven

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looks like a lot of work now......but it could be done.   you'd have to lower the angle at the bow,  and raise the slots in the second bulkhead.   fill in the gap under the deck tab with some of the plywood.

     of course,  you'd need to check to see if this will hinder the look of the era ship your trying to model.

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On 5/8/2017 at 5:43 AM, Louie da fly said:

Hi Vivian,

 

You certainly don't need to follow Corel's white painted lines. They don't appear in contemporary paintings of coccas - look particularly at Carpaccio's St Ursula series of paintings for extremely good representations of these vessels. 

 

I think I've read that paper of Valenti - very impressive.

 

And if you want to get rid of a mast and make other changes to make it closer to a late 15th century ship, you could end up with a very good model indeed.

 

You're making good progress with the build, but may I put in a suggestion? I really have trouble with the shape of the bow on the corel model - I don't believe the bow should be inclined backwards as it is. I know it's on the votive model, but I think the modelmaker got it wrong - and Corel have inclined the bow even further. Look at contemporary pictures and I think you'll find a more believable bow shape.

 

The trouble is it might be too difficult to change the model's central "spine" to a better shape at the bow - and you'd probably have to make the foremost bulkhead narrower as well, but you've already glued it in place. I was going to mention this before but wasn't sure if I should, as it might sound too much like criticism. And you've gone ahead so fast I don't know if it could be changed now. 

 

But if you're prepared to do it, I think it would make a more accurate representation of a ship of the time.  

 

Steven

Steven, thanks again. I think you´re right. But I´ve not fixed the false keel, yet. So, I can change it a bit and smooth a block to end the bow more likely to a real ship (not a votive one).  The bulkhead don´t seem to be a problem, at a better look. And feel free to appoint anything your eyes get, I´m here to learn, to discuss, to improve. You guys have brought great info, tips, processes I wouldn´t even think about. 

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On 5/8/2017 at 2:53 PM, popeye the sailor said:

looks like a lot of work now......but it could be done.   you'd have to lower the angle at the bow,  and raise the slots in the second bulkhead.   fill in the gap under the deck tab with some of the plywood.

     of course,  you'd need to check to see if this will hinder the look of the era ship your trying to model.

Popeye, that´s an idea. Lot´s of plywood to use, would work. :)

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2 hours ago, cog said:

Tudo bem?

Had to run to catch up, Vivian. I see you are building me with a twist ;) and have resolved the camera issue you had previously. Please, don't move before you've finished this build!

Tudo bem sim, Carl! Brigada. E com você?

 

I have the weekends to work, so, I´ll do my best to use this time. I already did some that I´ll be posting soon, like planking decks - though, there are some minor problems I found. Think I´ll have to cut a little more for the lower level due to some minor mistake with scale. Nothing big, but, well, it´s a problem anyway. Was too eager to begin, I presume. :P

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Hello there...


I have been folowing builds of old Mediterenian models, so this is interesting one ... The photos above are very old work from a Croatian modeler. These models were building in such a artistic way for centuries over here ...


Originals are very interesting ones ...


I will keep both eyes at Your build Vivian...


Regards, Zoran

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1 hour ago, MarisStella.hr said:

Hello there...


I have been folowing builds of old Mediterenian models, so this is interesting one ... The photos above are very old work from a Croatian modeler. These models were building in such a artistic way for centuries over here ...


Originals are very interesting ones ...


I will keep both eyes at Your build Vivian...


Regards, Zoran

Zoran, thank you. Find your kits to be great ones, would like to have them some day. ^^

Get a chair and feel at home.

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Hi Vivian, just dropped in on this build as well - looking nice. Front row was already full, but I found me some place.

 

If you think sails and rigging are to white - just make yourself two cups of tea. One to drink, and the other one to put the sails and thread in. It will get a nice old stained finish!

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