Carriage Gun Rigging

[allanyed]

Welcome to MSW Michael.  It would be nice if you would post a little intro about yourself in the new member section.

 

Regarding your question, Caruana gives similar dimensions and is specific that these are circumferences.   For breechings he has a table on page 385 in volume II of The History of English Sea Ordnance for various years from 1723 to 1765 as the sizes changed, especially in 1747 so the era is part of the equation as well as the gun size.

 

Allan

[Gregory]

Lavery says the following about breeching and tackles..

 

There are tables in various references, giving rope and block sizes.

Someone else may provide more detailed information.

 

PS

 

I see post #12 in this thread has a table of rope sizes.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Gregory

[Dr PR]

Thanks to everyone for contributing to this discussion! There is a lot of good information here!

[dafi]

As this topic came up newly, I can add some better pictures of Thorsminde, taken this summer :-)

 

Fascinating to see the 1812 mounts. A total of 3 are on display in 2 rooms. I had to climb a little behind the display, but fortunately no one complained 🙂

 

You can see the mounting holes of the cheeks in the front and on the side.

 

In the last picture you can see a label on the axle. I also never noticed the doubling up under the axle, possibly to serve as a slide if a wheel is damaged in action.

 

In another room is another carriage. What is fascinating here is that two layers of paint seem to have survived: Ochre over red.

 

You can see the play of colours here. Red and ochre paint?









More difficult to see, the inscription of the rear end, to be read from the left: St. George

[dafi]

The interesting thing is, that the carriage is exactely identical with the drawing from Mr. Rivers sketchbook and showing Victory´s carriage.

 

 

XXXDAn

 

 

[allanyed]

THANK YOU for posting these photos Dafi.   The details that can be seen are terrific, including the cleats which we rarely see on model carriages.    These show up on paintings of Victory but not sure they are even on the replica carriages today.   I am not sure when they came into use, as the earliest I can find is 1795, in Caruana's English Sea Ordnance volume I page 382. These drawings also show the breast at the front of the carriage.

Allan

 

 

 

[dafi]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:24 PM, allanyed said:

I just noticed something on the painting I posted above which gives me pause.   There is a double block hooked to the carriage which means there is a double block at the bulkhead as well, but even then it appears that the line starts at the double on the carriage.  This would have the loose end coming from this block which would be in the wrong direction.    From everything I have found to date, there were never two double blocks, even  on 32's which were the largest guns on Victory.   So much for accuracy on this painting (which was done quite a few years after Trafalgar) 

Just realised on a picture I posted in the Gibraltar thread, that there too were double blocks hooked in the back of the carriage. Here clearly the standing part comes from the other hook. More intriguing in your picture is the use of a cablet as breeching line.

[dafi]

On 10/27/2022 at 12:56 PM, dafi said:

... More intriguing in your picture is the use of a cablet as breeching line.

 

Just realised, that todays Constitution has cablets as breeching lines. Surprising, as they are meant to be more stiff than normal right handed lay, therfor more danger of breaking under the violent bent at the breech. Par opposite the Victory has (or at least had for a long time) lefthanded breeching lines, probabely as they are more flexible, means less breakable and also better absorbing the shocks. Any Idea of that?

 

XXXDAn

[mtaylor]

That could be intentional for "viewing purposes".   Gives a more rounded shape to look good.

[SaltyScot]

On 9/6/2019 at 12:20 AM, Dr PR said:

Later guns had a breeching ring cast into the barrel above the cascobel, and the breecing line passed through it.

 

Phil, how much later was this done? I am researching the tackle for my Lynx build right now and rather like the look of this (that you linked in your feed here from archjofo):

 

 

Here the breeching lines do not rest on the cascobel but pass through the ring you mentioned. Would this have been done after 1812? There is no description in my kit's instructions as to how the guns are to be rigged, so I thought I would ask you  

[Kenchington]

Mark,

 

There weren't before/after ways of rigging a gun carriage. Gun and carriage designs changed over time, between organizations that ordered their manufacture (e.g. the English Ordnance Board for your schooner) and between different designs for the same user (e.g. long guns vs. carronades). You are fortunate that there is a wealth of information on naval gunnery from the period of your build.

 

If your model has long guns (not carronades), then British warships (and other Ordnance Board-supplied units, such as fortress artillery) of that time had Blomefield-pattern guns, with a ring above the cascabel as an integral part of the casting -- as in the image you posted. The breeching did indeed pass through that ring (which is why it was there).

 

Trevor

[SaltyScot]

1 hour ago, Kenchington said:

If your model has long guns

 

It does indeed, Trevor. The kit supplied cannons do not have that ring so I may have to get creative on that. As always, your input is much appreciated and it was good to hear fro you.

[Kenchington]

2 hours ago, SaltyScot said:

The kit supplied cannons do not have that ring

Then they are (or approximate to) the older Armstrong pattern. (Long out-dated, in Ordnance Board issue, by 1812 but let's not quibble!) So the breeching needs to loop around the cascabel, with the loop seized (at least in full-size, maybe just glued in scale).

 

The Duke of Kent (Queen Victoria's dad) was Governor of Nova Scotia in the 1790s and used his pull to have the defences of the Halifax fortress updated. We still have a whole lot of Blomefield guns here. 

 

Trevor

[Dr PR]

Mondfeld's Historic Ship Models (page 167) says the breeching ring was found on English cannons from the late 18th century and early 19th century.

 

But where did the guns on the Lynx come from? There probably is no record of that, other than they were put on a vessel built in America.

 

Then did the British change out the guns on the Lynx/Musquidobit after it was captured?

 

I looked for the history of the vessel after it was captured and didn't find anything, How long was it in British service?

Edited 4 hours ago by Dr PR

[SaltyScot]

7 hours ago, Dr PR said:

How long was it in British service?

 

I found this information on her here, Phil:

 

After Napoleon’s defeat and the end of Britain’s war with France, Mosquidobit was sent to Deptford, England where her lines were taken off and is thought to have served in the Mediterranean, sailing between Toulon and Marseilles. By 1820, she had been decommissioned and, on January 13, 1820, was sold to a Mr. Rundle who placed her in private service.

 

It looks like she was only in British service for 4 years then.

[Kenchington]

7 hours ago, Dr PR said:

Then did the British change out the guns on the Lynx/Musquidobit after it was captured?

I may be wrong but my understanding is that it was normal for a vessel taken into the RN to be rearmed to current Ordnance Board standards once she was passed into dockyard hands -- which Lynx must have been or her lines would not have been taken off and we would not have plans of her today. Of course, what was normal did not necessarily apply in every case.

 

Trevor