Sovereign of the Seas 1637 by md1400cs - Sergal - 1:78 - to be hopefully bashed

[md1400cs]

OC. Thanks always so kind with you comments 👍

 

Finished the beakdeck bulkwarks as well as doing some needed fixes. Image notations reduce needed text.......

Ropes and deadyes are from Syren - So glad that Chuck's company is again selling ropes.

 

 

 

[Old Collingwood]

Beautiful work.

 

OC.

[allanyed]

Very nice Michael!

 

I agree with you that the pinrail holes appear to be way over scale.  Kits are notorious for supplying  hugely over scale pins. 

 

For SoS, there probably were no  pinrails at all?    David Lees notes  in Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War belaying pins were not used by the Royal Navy until about 1745.  This is more than 100 years after SoS was built, and when introduced, they were mainly in racks lashed to the shrouds not on racks secured to bulwarks or on the bitt cross pieces.  Donald McKay's book on on the SoS is supposed to be a great source of information for anyone building SoS and might address this as well.  

 

Again, your construction is very clean and very nicely finished!  

 

Allan

 

 

[EJ_L]

Good choice on the change for the seats of ease. Those appear much better both in scale and design.

 

On the pin rails, I think that the rails themselves were used, or a like-wise rail for the rigging, but I also do not believe that the pins themselves were in use until the mid 1700s as Allan said. I ran into this issue when I built La Couronne as she was before the use of pins also. I would leave the rail as the ropes still had to belay to something, just leave off the pins themselves.

[allanyed]

EJ,   How would the lines belay to the rail without pins?  I am having a hard time envisioning a pin rail that has no pins but can still be used to belay a line. 

 

From looking at 17th century contemporary models  the lines were belayed to cap rails, cleats, and timber heads for the most part.  Below are bow photos showing two different styles of rigging at the bow and there is no indication of any kind of rail as in Michael's kit.  Granted these are only a few examples so certainly not cast in stone.    RC Anderson's Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast is a great source for more details and nowhere does in write about a rail like those in the kit. 

                                                                    Below --  Coronation from the Kriegstein collection  Note the fairleads at the gammoning

                                                                         

 

                                                                 Below is the bow area of a 3rd rate of 1650 at Preble Hall - Note there are no fairleads at the gammoning

 

In the below photos there is a small set of bits just aft of the figure head on the Hampton Court (1678) in addition to the fairleads for other lines going to                                       the timber heads.  This photo is cropped rom the one on page 92 in Franklin's Navy Board Ship models.  

 

I have no idea if any of these are appropriate for SoS, but they may be closer to the way it was actually done compared to the kit version.

Allan

[md1400cs]

 

Allen: Thanks for your notes from D. Lee – much appreciated. I do have the McKay book – 

 

Having built a 1637 Vasa and used much info sourced from the museum, it does appear that the Dutch did use pinrails, at least in the forward beakdeck bulkwarks ,as well as a single pin rail crossing over from port to starboard. (McKay seems to agree re: SotS)

 

That said I have yet to find contemporary images that indicate ropes attached to forward forecastle bulkhead rails – see examples below. Big thanks for your post as well as your kind words. Thanks….For the great images !!!

 

So I am re-visiting the belaying pins “issue” especially at the forecastle deck. The Sergal kit also does not allow for lashing ropes at forward, or side forecastle railings. My work around will be to add a cross timbers above all railings. This would preclude adding pin rails as much as possible.

 

In any case, its clear to me from other sources that I use, including McKay’s that the Sergal rigging plans are very inaccurate. And they don’t include running rigging plans for adding sails.

 

The end results will probably be a hybrid, Vasa (similar vintage), McKay and Anderson Frankenstein monster rigging effort.  Also given that no specific empirical rigging data are available for ships of that vintage, adds to the conundrum. Adding sails are still in mind but hmm....

 

I have not been very consistent of late, in responding as quickly as I should. I have been busy with much more  away from home work of late – more than I expected, but enjoying it nonetheless. Also need to catch up with other build logs.....

 

As always thank for comments, likes and just dropping by. 

 

[allanyed]

Hi Michael,

 

For sure, as you are successfully getting some bashing going, get rid of the pin rails on the bulkheads.  If you do want to keep the pin rack, maybe consider replacing them so the pins will be to scale.  The holes look to be at least double, maybe triple the diameter of the pin.

 

Hope you don't mind a question and comment.

 

Do the instructions show the type of hull planking on your model?  We see this style of planking on many kit build and I have wondered if they give instructions to do it this way instead of how it was actually done.   Your planking is very neatly done but I was curious about this style.

 

Regarding the flags from the kit,  the two on the left of the photo you posted look like ensigns.  The top one is the the type of Union Jack which came into use in the beginning of the 19th century so would never have been seen on the SoS.  The lower one is a St. George's cross which was used in the 12th century for ships mainly for British ships sailing to the Med at that time and  its use continued for some time time but I believe was no longer in use in the 17th century.   By the time of SoS, the most appropriate ensigns would be a white ensign or red ensign.  If you want to go with one of these, it is really a simple matter of printing these on silk span or other tissue paper and then fixing the ink before furling it to hang naturally.   I have recently had to print these for my own project so if you would like the drawing please PM me with the dimensions and I can send you a printable color drawing.    Chuck Passaro goes into some detail on printing flags using gift wrapping tissue here at MSW as well.   Much better scaled than cloth of any kind.

Allan

The red and white ensigns in use between 1625 and 1707 follow:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[md1400cs]

Allen,

 

Thanks for all the info and questions, I am putting together detailed thoughts and responce.....

 

Regards,

[md1400cs]

Allen;

 

Thanks for your very detailed post, and interest in this build log.

 

1) Yes, you are certainly correct – kit manufactures mostly include generic -one size fit all pins. I have purchased smaller wood pins from Cornwall Model Ships in the UK (they are my main after-market “go to” source, including kits).

 

With regard to the pin holes that seem too big. Yes, they are, but there is a method to “my madness” that I have found super helpful, and excellent when installing running lines, especially when adding sails which add several dozens of needed extra lines and pin locations.

 

These images from my Vasa log - my method.

 

drilled overly large holes that allow for inserting properly scaled ropes as well as leaving room for later inserting the pins.

 

So; Insert a given rope from the underside of the rail.

 

Slightly tension the rope then temporarily insert the belaying pin to temporarily "lock-in' rope tension– do the same with all ropes, one area at a time. DO NOT yet glue the ropes and pins together because  after tensioning a rope – another will slacken and not look properly tensioned – of course!! – so it’s a back and forth many times – Once all tensions look “ok” then remove pin – added a CA Gel to its tip and insert it into rail hole, that would also glue the rope into place. One at a time works very well...

 

Cut off the leftover line right at the pin (topsde of rail), then slip the rope coil over the top. This will hide the cut off rope and look as if the left over rope is correctly coiled about pin head.

 

PS: I will remove those pinrails from the forecastle rails on the Sovereign.

 

Regarding the hull planking, No -- instructions, as in most kits -- just run single long planks from bow to stern.

 

Second planking also offer the same method.

Builders need to look at other sources to get proper plank looking historically “correct”. Especially with kits....For this build I wanted to use Pear wood (arguably wrong -but looks great IMO). Stained some planks here and there to allow for a better “look”.

That created an issue – I did not do a fine second sanding – that would have removed the staining. It also meant that I could not treenail the hull as I had done with the Vasa (used a wood filler – then sanding). And needed to be super careful in properly aligning and spacing second planks. 

 

As far as historical accuracy – touch-and-go – I looked at several other sources, as well as trying to emulate the proper look from visiting other builder’s logs. Still learning here….I spent more time learning how to properly plank the decks for this build. Good learning for me there…

 

Flags, super nice of you to offer your help. Your knowledge is very impressive indeed. I have two sets – the ones that came with the Sergal, I also purchased an Amati flag set for their now discontinued SotSeas. Both flag sets are certainly made of “too thick” material – and yes a “correct hang” are one of the most difficult bits to get right in our hobby.

I will look at Chuck’s instructions. Thanks for the tip. Syren are the only blocks, and ropes that I have used for my previous two builds, this one will also be detailed with Chuck’s ropes, blocks and some deadeyes.

 

I have not yet thought of flags, but thanks so much for your offer of assistance – I may, indeed, take you up on your offer. I will take some measurements ---

Last image update of mid-ship work..

 

Again, thanks for your very informative post….

 

Regards,

 

 

 

[allanyed]

Your idea of running the line through the hole first then "pinning" it temporarily is great.  I had heard of this in the past, but this renews my thoughts to give it a try.   My current is 17th century when belaying pins were not used on British ships  so I can dodge this bullet for the time being.  😀 

 

Cheers

 

Allan

 

 

[md1400cs]

Allen; Do you have a build log - could not locate one for your build?

 

Minor update some quarter deck and upper hull bronze installations. Need to start seriously thinking about the stern, galleries and balconies. Plan on scratch building that entire area (except for the window framings (kit provided bits are excellent!)

 

PS: The bronze bits are actually much "warmer" looking - iPhone doesn't seem to "see" that - Yea I could play around with the images in iPhotos or in Preview with my Imac ---no biggies

 

Enjoy your holiday weekend (if you celebrate that holiday)

 

Cheers,

 

[fmodajr]

Michael,

 

Shaping up to be a beautiful build!

 

Happy Thanksgiving,

Frank 

 

[md1400cs]

Thanks Frank....

Will post some updated images in the next few days...

[md1400cs]

Hi all,

Here are some updated images of work on the quarter deck bulkhead. A lot of “artistic” license here – Purists will be annoyed lol… Historical images do indicate most likely 4 forward mounted cannons – yup, I get that. Note last 4 images FYI….

 

I chose to allow for two, per an early drawing intended to illustrate proposed decorations – and those two won’t be mounted either (as they won’t be at the forecastle either when it’s time to add carriages to all of the upper decks.

 

The visual intentions are for the side carriages to be rotated between the two openings (forward and sides) that are very near to each other on each side (see instruction guide image – much too crowded) I did add the recoil ropes purposefully.

 

I could have, instead, just added two central cannon openings, then installed railings on each side of bulkhead, but I was determined to find a good location for the SotS crest that came from Amati bits, and I like how this sort of matches the look of the centrally mounted bell at the forecastle.

 

Now onto the next area – I very much appreciate your visits, likes – thanks indeed.

 

[Baker]

Possible idea :
That only lighter cannons were placed here. Which in case of boarding were fired at the attackers. 

Loaded with all sorts of "anti-personnel projectiles...

[md1400cs]

Hi all,

Another minot bit-by-bit update. Quarterdeck bulkhead and deck side railings.

As always thanks for your interest in this log. added text to images to limit text up here.

 

 

 

Regards

 

[fmodajr]

Michael,

 

Beautiful work on a massive build! 

You are putting a lot of thought and innovation into this build.

Congrats!

 

I hope all is well,

Frank

 

[Ian_Grant]

What a gorgeous model!  The era was so ornate....she looks like the inside of the Linderhof Palace in Bavaria which we visited on a bicycle trip. Our jaws were dropped throughout the whole tour.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=linderhof+palace+images&tbm=isch&chips=q:linderhof+palace,g_1:inside:7N3vfeD-GQ0%3D&client=firefox-b-d&hl=en-US&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiU3d6X4Nn1AhVGqXIEHWFFB8oQ4lYoAHoECAEQGg&biw=1103&bih=507

[md1400cs]

Frank: Thanks indeed - much appreciated. Trying to also raise my skill set a bit more as well.

 

Yes, all good on this coast - can't say as much on your side  hope that you are staying safe -it  was quite a messy storm that millions went through!!

 

Ian: Thanks as well your thoughts are much appreciated. Awesome link - it is still astonishing how some people's luxury  of life still fascinates many of us today. The art in-and-of-itself is overwhelmingly beautiful - contextually speaking of course...

 

[md1400cs]

Almost back-to-back – work in progress updates

 

Also, for noting the Great Upgrades within the current kit compared to its vintage release; as well as some changes that will be made for this build from kit instructions. Those of you who have been so kind to follow along know that I have been very negative about the current kit’s very poor 600+ metal bits (the heart of this ship no less)

 

Current kit no longer includes solid bronze well detailed decorative bits, instead supply white metal bits that are electroplated with a “gold” plating, that somehow also preclude earlier solid bronze very good details.

 

That said, stern area upgrades are super Excellent. Will use all of the included bits.

 

As always so appreciate the amount of visits this log receives, as well as the kind likes, and comments from some MSW members. Thank You…

 

PS: If Sergal had kept the solid bronze 600+ bits as well as the kit’s new upgrades this kit might be one of the best, in general, kits on the market today.

It’s hard to recommend this current kit given its high retail price point – North of $1000 USD, and about €850+20% VAT in Europe – Hmmmm – these negatives are, of course, my subjective opinions…

 

PS!! Big Kudos to builders who completed this vintage kit – much more of a difficult build IMO (very -at best) marginal instructions) – I’ve seen (and study) superb images of the old kit

 

Cheers,

 

[BobG]

1 hour ago, md1400cs said:

If Sergal had kept the solid bronze 600+ bits as well as the kit’s new upgrades this kit might be one of the best, in general, kits on the market today.

It’s hard to recommend this current kit given its high retail price point – North of $1000 USD

 

First of all, wonderful work, Michael, on this immensely ornate and historic model.

 

I would guess that the changes that Sergal has made to the current kit were done to save on production costs. However, I think that most modelers who pay over $1000 USD for a kit, expect to get a superior quality kit and wouldn't mind spending a couple hundred more to get outstanding quality in the materials of the kits. These higher end, expensive kits have a limited market and I believe that the people who buy them want the best and are willing to pay for it. 

[md1400cs]

Bob; Thanks for your nice comment - much appreciated. You are so right - paying a premium for any kit, one would expect a high quality product indeed. Sergal has had this kit on the market for more than 30 years - certainly their initial R&D has been returned al long. long time ago. It is disingenuous of Sergal "bean counters" to lower the quality of the metal parts - making them almost - an "eye sore" IMO of course. 

 

Possibly someone at Sergal has become aware of this issue. I looked at a retailer in CA - kit listed for $1,150. + 10% tax and probably $30.00 shipping?

 

On the flipside there is a new kit that is a work in progress - not yet on the market that has Chris Watton as a lead designer with Amati - the images of this new HMS Victory kit look to be AMAZING!!!! - Now that is an example of a superb kit!!

Yes, higher end ($$$) kits do have a more limited market appeal - though I would image that this new victory will be a monster sales hit - also the ship is arguably one of the most popular for builders? 

 

https://www.shipmodelersassociation.org/research/VictoryKitResearchWatton.pdf

 

here is the link to James H  - build log for this upcoming kit

 

 

Regards,

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by md1400cs

[md1400cs]

Hi mates,

Just sharing a bit of frustration that has now come around to bite. Early on I had decided (insecurity) to square tuck the stern as well as adding four detailed cannon door framings. Round tuck two years ago seemed too difficult for me to achieve properly – hmmm? The square tuck dimensions – have now come back to create the following issues.

Just sharing lol… image texts go through that part of this build

 

That said as I was putting this post together it has helped me to more clearly find solutions…

 

As always thanks so much for your likes, posts, or just silently dropping by to have a look.

 

Cheers,

 

[fmodajr]

Michael,

 

Such a complicated build!

Your patience in thinking this through is amazing.

She will be a beauty when finished!

Frank

 

[EJ_L]

I feel your pain! You know I love to chop up the framing on kits to allow for interior build-outs and other modifications, and what seems a simple change at first, later reveals itself to be a major issue. I now have a hefty pile of kit decks that would no longer fit the structure as intended, especially balconies. Almost all of mine end up being scratch built to either align properly with the interior decking or to fit the curves of the hull. 

 

I think your plan to extend out the framing to add more hull will work fine... just a lot of frustrating work. I have watched you recover from "whoops" before beautifully. I believe you will do so again.   You do have an added bonus of the hull being black in this area which will help hide mistakes or imperfections easier than natural wood.

 

Otherwise, she is looking great!

[md1400cs]

E.J,

Thanks for your notes - Yes, it is much more work indeed. And as you stated - bits don't fit right. I had planked the lower balcony flooring using the kit's provided template piece. Well as much as I "played with it" it just was not going to fit as needed.

So had to make one from scratch and plank that one as well. And then I noticed - Yikes - that one of the door hinges of the foredeck bulkhead had separated. Luckily, I was able to separate the framing without causing any other damage. Door hinges are now like Fort Knox lol. 

When it comes to interior work your current log is way Up There - Well done indeed!!. Haven't reached that stratosphere  yet. On my list of attempts for a future build. As always thanks for following this log.

 

Cheers,

 

[md1400cs]

Hi all,

Have not posted since March as the shipyard had been closed for a couple of months. Admiral and I decided it was time for our home to have a remodel beyond just paint (shipyard became a storage room – yikes)

So just catching up here with work that I am finally moving forward with… thanks to members still following, as well as those just dropping in for a look – so much appreciated.

The poop deck and quarter decks have been my area of work. That said one glaring lack of foresight has resulted in a spacing issue.

I was very tempted to tear out the poop, and quarter deck to fix this - but way too much re-building work, as well as having to totally re-plank both decks, lengthen bulkworks, as well as railings.

 

So instead, just moving forward. Image notes sort of go through my thoughts, so keeping text brief.

Sorry could be too many images in this particular catch- up post….

Last several images include details that were also added to the other decks (sump pumps, finished catheads, cannon ball boxes)

 

Glad to be open and, working again…

 

Regards,

 

 

[Paul Le Wol]

Michael, your Sovereign is amazing and the way that you insert text into the pictures makes it so easy to follow along with your thought processes. Very nice.

[Baker]

Very nice work  Michael.

And welcome back.

[fmodajr]

Michael,

Nice to see you resuming work on the ship!

Lots to digest here on your latest post! 

Looks beautiful!

 

Frank