milling wood

[bluenose2]

Hi Les here. I am finishing up my Beagle but have run out of walnut second planking. To source it pre cut will cost about $100.00 to get it shiped to my house here in Canada. I have some 1x4 planks in my shop. I can cut it on my table saw but I don't know in which direction I would do it. I tried this before and the planks cracked when trying to install them. So do I stand it up tall on the four inch and cut to thickness and then cut to width or the reverse?

[Bob Cleek]

That depends upon which way you want the grain to run: vertical grain or flat sawn. The planks should not crack if you use heat to bend them. If they do, it's likely that you are simply bending them beyond their limits of elasticity and cutting doesn't have a whole lot to do with it.

[allanyed]

Les,

You may want to consider the  type of walnut, claro, black,  English or some other.  Try making a few planks the easy way first from your board and see if it is a reasonable match in color and grain to the planks that came in your kit.   If it is a different species, the contrast may not be what you would like regardless of which direction you make the cuts from the board that you have.   

 

Allan

[Roger Pellett]

In milling cedar for wood canvas canoes it is generally understood that flat sawn wood is more flexible than quarter sawn- wood with vertical grain.  Ribs that are 5/32/in thick x 3in wide and have sharp bends are flat sawn.  Planking which is 3/16in thick and wider and not subject to tight bends ideally is selected from quarter sawn stock.

 

The same principle would apply to model ship planking, except in either case try to avoid pieces where the grain in the plane to be bent runs out to the bent surface as this is where cracks are likely to start.

 

Roger

[Gregory]

3 hours ago, bluenose2 said:

To source it pre cut will cost about $100.00 to get it shiped to my house here in Canada. I

What dimensions do you need. and what sources have you looked at?

 

Just curious..

[bluenose2]

I don't know what species of wood that Mamoli or Corel uses, but I have a good stock of American oak left over from other cabinet jobs. If you look at the end grain of a 2x4 you'll see concentric rings. I can't see them on my oak as the grain is very tight. 

[bluenose2]

The dimensions are 4mm x .05 mm and 5 mm x .05. Modelers Central sells for $.64 ea US and a British site sells for .05 pounds each. I require 60 pieces so with the exchange on both suppliers I'm looking at nearly $100.00 dollars to get it. I can cut my own for the power required to run my table saw.

[Roger Pellett]

Les, I assume that you mean .5mm, not .05mm.  .5mm is still very thin, about .020in.  I would select the wood with the straightest grain possible. Then If possible I would cut it with the grain vertical,  that is with the parallel rings perpendicular to the wide dimension.

 

Roger

[allanyed]

Les.

Sorry Les, but I am confused.  Are you thinking of planking the entire hull in oak rather than walnut?   You mentioned you ran out of walnut so it sounded like you had already started the planking in that kind of wood.      If you already finished half the planking in walnut, oak does not seem to make sense.  I have always found oak in places like Home Depot and Lowes to  be very grainy but I have no idea what species they sell. As yours has a tight grain I am curious to know what species, if you happen to know.  From what I can find there are over 50 species of oak in North America.    I was very surprised to find there were so many!!    

Allan

[Roger Pellett]

Allen,

 

I don’t know about Lowe’s or Home Depot but my preferred home improvement store/ lumberyard is Menards and the the oak lumber that they sell is red oak, a species to be avoided in full size ship or boat construction as it has little or no rot resistance.  Also with it’s coarse grain it would be a poor ship model choice.

 

Roger

[barkeater]

I'm a bit confused which is not unusual for me. I have a micro table saw which works well for mm size ripping. With .5mm I have to go slow so as not to split or break the plank. My saw will not cut 1 inch thickness satisfactorally. Do you havea standard table saw in which case .5 mm I think would be really tough? With my micro saw I would cut to the larger thickness 4 or 5 mm and then do the .5 off of this. A better idea would be to buy 1/8 or 1/4 inch planks and rip them which would give you 3 1/2mm and 6mm planks roughly. If you want to be more exact plane them but with the naked eye I don't think anybody would notice.

Rich

[bridgman]

Les:

Do you have access to a band saw? You would lose less material to saw dust

because of the thinner blade .020 compared to .125", thus more planks. Blades 

are designed for resawing with special tooth patterns and off sets. There

are simple jigs for a band saw that can make planks, ruff cut,  to about 1/8".

Bridgman Bob

[Jaager]

Roger,

The grain look (as well as the course grain and open pores - which tends to overpower any detail and be distracting in a model,)  is pretty much the same for all Oak species.  You are right about Red Oak with one additional characteristic - the pore structure has open communication internally.  Water or air can be blow thru it from one side to the other.  If a barrel is made from Red Oak and it is filled with a liquid - water or alcohol, instead of nails - it will actually only be borrowing the liquid.  On a cross sea voyage, the barrels could be partially or totally empty at the destination - if alcohol, at least.   It would be interesting trying to keep a dry bilge in a ship planked with Red Oak.   Must have been interesting to have been the ones who discovered that while at sea.

 

About the Mamoli Beagle -  everything that I seen regarding this kit suggests that economy was a primary consideration.  Never mind that the hull appears to be the same as that of Bounty and/or Endeavor and is not that of a Cherokee class - 10 gun - "coffin" brig.  It was manufactured in Italy?  In North America, Walnut available is Black Walnut (Juglans nigra).  It is far and away superior to any other species of Walnut.  It is also way too expensive for an economy kit.  The native European Walnut is (I think) English Walnut.  It produces the eatable nuts, so is not primarily a lumber source and is also too expensive for an economy kit.  Any Walnut in the kit is likely to be African Walnut.  This is not a Juglans species at all.  It is closer to being a Mahogany. The name Walnut for it is a marketing ploy and not Botany.  I am guessing it tends to be brittle and prone to splitting when bent.  Black Walnut will make a hull planked with it a dark color, but it is not likely to come near matching existing African Walnut planking.  Although most of Black Walnut's properties are ones we seek, one unfortunate property is its open pores.  

 

Commercial hardwood lumber in eastern North America - that is suitable for our purposes, domestic and commonly available:

Hard Maple

Beech

Birch

Black Cherry

Yellow Poplar

 

Ripping a 0.5mm slice using a 10" tablesaw =  if the fence is perfect, the board is dead flat, and the blade is running true and does not eat into the slice,  a Freud 10" thin kerf ripping blade has a 0.094" kerf - that is 2.4mm, so for every pass, 80% of the wood goes to saw dust.  

 

[Charles Green]

While this goes back to the topic of lead oxidation, it speaks to the use of poplar for modeling.  As modelers, poplar has all the characteristics we look for - but from personal experience, any lead components in its vicinity are subject to its out-gassing of acetic acid, which starts the whole oxidation process.  I made a container for storing .177 caliber lead pellets from poplar.  Enclosed in the container, the pellets started "frosting over" in a few weeks.  In the open, or farther way from poplar - who knows?    

[Jaager]

2 hours ago, Charles Green said:

it speaks to the use of poplar for modeling

I have not come across any mention of out gassing and Yellow Poplar before.  That does not mean that it is not true.  One other factor: clear finished Yellow Poplar can scream: please paint me. 

 

Did you by chance use PVA to assemble the box?  It is essentially a strong concentration of acetic acid in the bottle.  I failed an Organic Chemistry lab quiz, because I did a shortcut jump on a: Is it an ester or an ether? problem.  There was no ppt, so I made the wrong choice.  I forgot that acetic acid is a liquid and does not form a ppt.  Anyway, the acid will slowly evaporate and I suspect that polyvinyl polymerization continues for a long time after the desired bond is formed.  The reaction probably releases acetic acid, that could occur for years at a very low level.

[bluenose2]

Sorry all, I am talking walnut. The wood that Mamoli includes in the kit for second planking. Just looking for some advice on which way I should rip my 1x4 planks as the manufacturer would have done.

[mtaylor]

9 hours ago, barkeater said:

I'm a bit confused which is not unusual for me. I have a micro table saw which works well for mm size ripping. With .5mm I have to go slow so as not to split or break the plank. My saw will not cut 1 inch thickness satisfactorally. Do you havea standard table saw in which case .5 mm I think would be really tough? With my micro saw I would cut to the larger thickness 4 or 5 mm and then do the .5 off of this. A better idea would be to buy 1/8 or 1/4 inch planks and rip them which would give you 3 1/2mm and 6mm planks roughly. If you want to be more exact plane them but with the naked eye I don't think anybody would notice.

Rich

Rich,

Are your blades dull? Are you using the right tooth count for the thickness?  There is an optimum feed speed and an optimum tooth count for every type and every thickness of wood.  Generally, you should try to get 3 teeth in the cut... one going in, one in the center, and one exiting.

 

There is a document that while written for the Byrnes saw, works well for just about every hobby table saw.  https://modelshipworld.com/topic/23843-byrnes-saw-reference-also-good-for-other-desktop-hobby-saws/

 

[Charles Green]

20 hours ago, Jaager said:

I have not come across any mention of out gassing and Yellow Poplar before.  That does not mean that it is not true.  One other factor: clear finished Yellow Poplar can scream: please paint me. 

 

Did you by chance use PVA to assemble the box?  It is essentially a strong concentration of acetic acid in the bottle.  I failed an Organic Chemistry lab quiz, because I did a shortcut jump on a: Is it an ester or an ether? problem.  There was no ppt, so I made the wrong choice.  I forgot that acetic acid is a liquid and does not form a ppt.  Anyway, the acid will slowly evaporate and I suspect that polyvinyl polymerization continues for a long time after the desired bond is formed.  The reaction probably releases acetic acid, that could occur for years at a very low level.

 

[Charles Green]

Jaager:

Yes on the PVA.  Not much, but it's there.  I had to go back and look to be sure.  Screws were involved too.  I'm going to get the NRG Journal back issue with the definitive article on wood types that contribute to lead oxidation and see if I can put this issue to rest.  

[barkeater]

Mark,

Thanks for the info. I can rip .5 although I wish I had a Byrnes.

[bluenose2]

My table saw and blades are fine. That isn't the issue. My question is if you look at the end of a 3/4" x 4" walnut plank, which way would you rip it to get the most flexible planking? Would you stand it up and rip .5mm strips then rip it to 5mm or lay it flat 3/4" rip .5mm strips then cut to 5mm? And sorry as I said I am talking about walnut, the second planking a lot of manufactures supply in your kit.

 

[Gregory]

Try both and see what happens..

 

It would be hard to know without having the wood in hand.

[bruce d]

11 hours ago, bluenose2 said:

 if you look at the end of a 3/4" x 4" walnut plank, which way would you rip it to get the most flexible planking?

OK, have a look at this and compare the end grain of your wood with the examples in the video.

 

 

If your walnut is quartersawn, you should  be able to get good slices off the narrow edge. If not, you will have to experiment. Based on my own experience, and I am no expert, you will know pretty quickly if thin planks from the narrow edge are going to be any good.

 

HTH

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

It appears that we are confusing two separate issues.

 

How to orient the grain

How to set things up to saw the planks

 

The first will determine how well the wood will bend.  If there is “grain run out” in the plane of the wood being bent the wood is more likely to fail.  Grain runout means that the grain, not being parallel to axis of the plank reaches the surface.  Since the grain boundary is weak the wood separates at this point.  Choose the straightest grained pieces that you have.

 

The second has no bearing on the wood’s flexibility.  It is a matter of which technique you feel more confident in using.  I would rip slabs to the 5mm dimension and then slice .5mm strips but if you can do it the other way OK.

 

Roger

[bridgman]

It would be much more difficult and more inaccurate to cut a 3/4 x 4'' plank

 with the 4'' side at right angle to the saw bed. You would have to make 

more than one cut to go through the width. What should determine your final choice is having

the grain as close to or at right angles to the final surface and make your selection on those pieces,as they will

also be easier to bend.

Bridgman Bob

[Jaager]

59 minutes ago, bridgman said:

It would be much more difficult and more inaccurate to cut a 3/4 x 4'' plank

 with the 4'' side at right angle to the saw bed.

This is resawing and it is best done using a large band saw.  A 4" wide piece of stock = this may well be necessary for the floor timbers of a 1st rate 17th century warship if you are framing in Navy Board style.  That style is really profligate, when it comes to efficiency in the use of wood. 

Set your fence so that it is a bit less than the maximum depth of cut for your saw.  Rip a piece from the 4" board that is that wide.  You do not want to do your bending tests on 3/4" wide stock, never mind doing it using 4" wide stock. 

If you are working at 1:48 scale,  real planks were almost never wider than 10", so even doing your tests on 1/4" wide stock will be out of scale for ultimate use. 

 

Since this discourse is about you being able to mill your own stock,  you have additional degrees of freedom in your choice of species to use.

Give some thought to avoiding GIGO.   The original kit species of "Walnut" is likely garbage.  At model scale, Oak is garbage.  Black Walnut is certainly not garbage, but it is an inauthentic color.  Below the waterline, Black Cherry planking will darken to be close the old penny copper in color.  No verdigris staining, but sort of close to a real copper bottom.