ancre Le Rochefort by No Idea - 1/24th Scale - First POF Build

[No Idea]

1 hour ago, druxey said:

Sometimes we just have to do what works. I suspect it was the same in a real shipyard as well. It's looking very good.

 

Sorry to read that you came down with the dreaded 'lurgy, but good to read that you are recovering.

Thanks druxey 👍  Its not a nice thing to catch but I'm well over the worst of it now.

 

As for the chock - cheers for saying that as I realised that I just wasn't going to make a decent part in one piece.  I know its not going to be seen when finished but I could say that about 90% of everything thats been made so far.  I did what was best for me in the end and I don't think that the frames up the dogs legs are going to be any easier either.  I'll just take my time and get them as square and true as possible.

[Hubac's Historian]

Excellent work, Mark!

[WalrusGuy]

Vey crisp and neat work! Your work is very inspiring, Mark.

 

Wishing you a quick recovery!

[No Idea]

Hi All

 

So far so good regarding the fitting of the small pieces that run up the dogs legs to complete the stern framing.  I've now made and installed the starboard side and these are the rough photo's just after gluing.  Lots of fairing will be required as I've left these as square posts which I hope that I don't regret later.

 

I've also milled a small recess in the very last filler piece so that I could pick up and support the quarter deck beam.

 

On to the port side now

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by No Idea
Add more photos as I had error 200 on two of them

[No Idea]

Hi All

 

Some more done and this time it's the port side which just about completes the frame.  

 

It went ok as I gained experience on the other side and I'm very pleased the way its very symmetrical.  These small frames are not hard to install; they just take a long time making sure that the angles are spot on.  I also tied into the quarterdeck beam again and have faired the inside.

 

So its now out of the jig and for the first time I can actually see the shape of the frame - what a moment that was 👍

 

I can't do any fairing on the outside yet as it still needs some strengthening first but its not that far away.  The next job is to make and instal the helm port which will give much more strength to the counter timbers.

 

Its not perfect by any stretch of the imagination  - but I'm very happy with the results so far and thanks for all of the comments and likes 🙂

 

Mark

[druxey]

Your work looks excellent to my eye. Mark. Very sweet.

[WalrusGuy]

One may think it's a computer rendered image. It's that perfect. Amazing! 

[No Idea]

52 minutes ago, druxey said:

Your work looks excellent to my eye. Mark. Very sweet.

 

Thanks druxey I've learnt a lot getting this far and there is a lot that I would do differently on my next build.  I relied on the jig that I built far too much when raising the frames due to inexperience.  It was only after I fired a centre line down the frames I discovered that some tilt between 2.5mm and 3mm to starboard.  On this scale I can get away with discrepancies like this and I'm great at hiding things 👍  So many lessons learnt and no doubt hundreds ahead of me too.  I now understand why builders like Albert and bitao make such fantastic building stations - I will too next time.

 

45 minutes ago, WalrusGuy said:

One may think it's a computer rendered image. It's that perfect. Amazing! 

 

Cheers WalrusGuy - I reckon you need to start scratch building based on your current fantastic build.  You know you want too!! 

[druxey]

Remember - the full-size builders didn't have elaborate building stations with jigs! Just plumb lines, squares and measuring tools. It helps to remember to check vertical in all three planes as you erect each frame:

 

1) vertical as seen from the side

 

2) at right angles across the keel

 

3) center of cross-spall centered above the keel

 

No-one will notice, once you model is complete and mounted vertically, that your keel is very slightly canted to one side!

[Bitao]

No Idea, with all due respect, I was blown away when I first saw your build! Your work is exquisite, with a strong learning and hands-on ability, there is no doubt about it. But as I have seen since, I have a feeling of the difficulties and problems that lie ahead of you. But it doesn’t matter, because it’s also an inevitable part of my personal experience. This process only their own personal experience and continuous accumulation of experience in order to have a deeper experience. So I don’t usually point out the mistakes of others. In the eyes of many people, as long as the parts are processed accurately and positioned accurately, they mean success, which is not the case. There are a lot of variables here, and no one can control for bias. As druxey points out (the last sentence is the main point) , he’s obviously a very experienced pro I admire! Don’t be fooled by other people’s beautiful results, it’s more important to learn how to adjust the deviation to a reasonable range. Usually the two sides of the ribs can be controlled within the maximum deviation of 1-2 mm, I think it is very good! Even if I use a lot of measurement and positioning means is the same! Because there are huge variables in the wood itself. That’s why it’s so hard to develop a full-size, full-structure kit other than building it from scratch. Please continue your wonderful, insist on you will become that excellent!

[dvm27]

Well, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself - your work is exceptional. I'd be willing to bet that the original ships did not end up exactly to spec as well.

[No Idea]

bitao, Greg and druxey thanks for the support and encouragement 👍  I honestly don't mind putting mistakes and problems that I have into this build as hopefully it will help another builder in the future.

 

So onto the helm port - I really enjoyed making this part!  I cut out the three parts required and discovered that one of my counter timbers is not quite vertical.  So the first thing I did was to mill a slight taper onto the port leg so that it fitted correctly.

 

Next I glued and pinned the parts together as I needed to get as much strength into this assembly as possible.  The reason being was the cutting of the port hole.  In Adrian Sorolla's book he glues these parts to the ship and then cuts the hole at a later date.  This seemed like a very difficult thing to do considering its position, shape and angle.

 

So I free handed a hole out on the mill which went ok and then finished it off with a file.  I think I've saved myself one hell of a job later in the build.

 

So my next job is to check the fairing inside the hull to make sure that I'm happy with it.  I then need to strip down my jig to give me better access to the hull and I then want to mark out and make the deck clamp.  Should be fun!

 

Mark

[WalrusGuy]

I absolutely love the last picture of the transom assembly. Amazing craftsmanship..

 

I could be wrong, but should the helm port be more of a pear shape? Something like this?

 

 

[No Idea]

Hi WalrusGuy - I think that you are spot on about the finished shape 👍  I've left it slightly small as I can't really see the final shape on the plans.  It's nothing to do with the plans as all of the information is there I just can't see it for some reason.

 

So I thought that I would wait until I've made the rudder and then hopefully all will become clearer to me.

[druxey]

Well that was one method of cutting a helm port that I've not seen before! I have far less valor. I pre-file the shape of the hole before I assemble the parts. Only final shaping is done after assembly. That way, if I mess up, only one piece will be spoiled, not all of them!

[No Idea]

12 minutes ago, druxey said:

Well that was one method of cutting a helm port that I've not seen before! I have far less valor. I pre-file the shape of the hole before I assemble the parts. Only final shaping is done after assembly. That way, if I mess up, only one piece will be spoiled, not all of them!

Who dares wins 🤣  I just couldn't see a way of removing so much material with it on the ship without loads of damage.  I could have done with a longer end mill though as I was using its entire cutting surface which is never a good thing.

[dvm27]

Nice set up on the mill! I suggest you mock up a rudder out of some cheap material. You'll quickly see what the final shape of the rudder opening needs to be to allow for the depth and swing of the rudder. It's very hard to visualize this from a plan as it usually is not a projected illustration.

[No Idea]

8 hours ago, dvm27 said:

Nice set up on the mill! I suggest you mock up a rudder out of some cheap material. You'll quickly see what the final shape of the rudder opening needs to be to allow for the depth and swing of the rudder. It's very hard to visualize this from a plan as it usually is not a projected illustration.

Thanks Greg and that was great advice too.  I made a piece of rudder as you suggested and found that I needed to remove more material right at the stern post to get clearance.

 

 

[No Idea]

Marking out the deck clamp - I took the measurements for both the height of the clamp and the clamp dimensions from the cross sectional drawings.

 

I then had to think of a way of marking it accurately inside the hull.  I did think about drilling small 0.5mm holes from the outside to get my marks but decided against this.  In the end I modified my height gauge which worked really nicely and was actually very simple to do.

 

Next I joined up my marks by using a strip of wood which I temporally clamped in place.  I now have a nice solid line to put the actual clamp up too, and its nice and even all of the way around the inside which must be a good sign.

 

Now is going to be the hard part - The clamp at this scale of 1/24 is a piece of timber 3.4mm thick by 9mm wide and I have cut these in readiness.

 

The problem is definitely going to be the bow as the curve due to the dutch style construction of the hawse timbers is quite severe.  The timbers themselves are far too fragile to get any sort of heavy clamping going on so I need to preform the clamp curve at this point. 

 

I'm going to make a jig to try and bend the clamp into shape - It may work; it may not due to the thickness of the timber and the harsh curve but I'm going to give it a try.  My other option is to spile this piece but I don't think that this will be any easier.  There is no way I can spile it spot on to the curve and camber so to would probably need a bit of clamping to pull it tight.  The problem for me then would be that the grain would be all wrong and I think that it would snap.

 

The other issue for me is that the clamp is made up of 4 individual pieces which are joined with a hooked scarph joint.  This will be another first for me but I do like a challenge.  I may not get any posts up next week as I have a lot to solve but that surely is the fun in what we do!

 

Mark

 

(Sorry for some reason my photo's have all appeared back to front  )

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by No Idea
Explanation of weird picture layout

[No Idea]

Hi everyone

 

Work on Le Rochforte has slowed to a glacial pace as installing the deck clamp is a bit harder than I thought.  After hours of looking at the plans I was certain that the deck clamp at the bow had to run underneath the third breast hook.

 

So to be sure I dropped Gerard Delacroix a message and he confirmed that this was correct.  He also pointed out that the decking is nailed directly to the third breast hook so the relationship between all of these parts is critical.  So I have spent a lot of time marking the positions of these parts out inside the hull and I'm pretty sure I've got it about right now.  I also have a much better understanding of the construction.

 

Anyway back to the pre-bending of the deck clamp at the bow.  I made up a pair of formers to the correct bend out of some scrap chip board.

 

As the timber is 9mm x 3.4mm I didn't think that heat would be the way to go.  So as a first experiment I soaked the wood for 24 hours in a diluted ammonia solution.  The pieces bent around the former very easily and so far have not cracked in any way.  The only issue is that the wood has changed colour, but this may be ok once the wood has dried.  If not I'll try another method nest weekend;  I'll let you know

 

Mark

[druxey]

I think ammonia is an old wives' tale. One of those handed down bits of unquestioned  'wisdom'. I don't think that there is any scientific evidence that ammonia softens lignin! Hot water, steam or moist heat will do so, cold water and dry heat more slowly. Forget the ammonia; the wood and your eyes will thank you.

[No Idea]

druxey I think that you are probably right but I've never tried it before so I thought - why not give it a go!  I have to say that the wood literally bent with light finger pressure.  I probably won't use this method again as ammonia is a horrible product that you certainly do not want inside your home.  Having said that I'm glad that I've tried it at least once.

[dvm27]

I agree with Druxey. I have tried ammonia and it did nothing additional but discolor my wood. Currently I use a heat gun (carefully) on wet wood and if you go slowly you can actually feel the lignin fibers relaxing. Also, there is always a degree of spring back so adding an additional 15-20% curve to the formers usually corrects for this.

[Bitao]

I couldn’t agree more with Druxey and Greg. I’ve tried it before. Ammonia is a temporary bleach, but it’s not stable. Wood softener is also available in China, and I don’t recommend it either; while it will have some effect, it will damage the wood fibers and become brittle after drying. In addition to clamps, hot air guns and warm water are your best choice for quick and easy access.

[No Idea]

Hi All

 

Firstly thanks for all of the comments and you were all correct!  The wood stayed discoloured, it was very very brittle and the bend on the former was insufficient.

 

So having learnt I started again but this time simply using water and heat as I have always done in the past funnily enough.  I also made the former more of a curve and I also introduced the frames camber onto it as well.  It all went well and there are a couple of pictures below.

 

I have also made the third breast hook which fits into long notches that need to be cut into the deck clamp.  This hook is different to all of the other four as its profile is not flat.  It has an angle across its width which mirrors the angle of the deck.  Once I had worked out the cutting sequence it actually wasn't too hard to make.  I just had to replace the templates often as I ended up having to cut them off during the machining.  Again there are a few pictures below which I hope explain better what I have done.

 

So a bit more progress and thanks once again to you all

 

Mark 

[dvm27]

Looks like you've got it down now Mark. One nice thing about those fussy breast hooks is that they hide any small gaps between the deck clamp and the frames in this notoriously difficult to fair area of the hull.

[WalrusGuy]

1 hour ago, No Idea said:

Fits like a glove! Beautiful and precise work, Mark!

[No Idea]

Greg and WalrusGuy - thanks both 👍

 

It still needs a bit more fitting to get it all a bit tighter but its just about there now.  I think the time taken now getting it right will save a lot of adjustments later on.  I still need to bend the starboard side deck clamp and then I'll have a go at the hooked scarf joints which should be fun

 

Cheers Mark

[druxey]

Coming along well, Mark. I've found marking levels inside the hull easier by poking a thin piece of wood or metal attached to my height gauge between the frames rather than by reaching over as you have done.

 

Funny how myths like ammonia have circulated for years. There are others: don't use beeswax or tea on your rigging or sails; both are acid and in the long term do no good. Conservators' wax and material dye or acrylic paint are much better options.

[AnobiumPunctatum]

I took my time today to read through your log. Really wonderful and clean build.