Magenta 1861 by GrandpaPhil - 1/72 - CARD - French Ironclad Broadside Battleship - built as designed

[GrandpaPhil]

2 hours ago, wefalck said:

BTW, I started looking into the naval guns, but found conflicting information on the armament of the SOLFERINO. Do you have more precise information, what she was supposed to carry at the beinning ? The data you posted earlier don't seem to be right, as far as the bores are concerned.

Thank you very much!  
 

According to European Ironclads 1860-75, Osprey book, the Magentas carried 16 x 7.6 in. Smoothbore Muzzle Loaders, 34 x 6.4 in. Rifled Breech Loaders and 2 x 8.9 in. Rifled Muzzle Loaders.

 

The book also says that the French Navy upgraded the ordinance twice during the 1860s.

 

I also have a copy of Conway’s All The World’s Fighting Ships 1860-1905 in my Amazon cart.

 

If I cannot find any better information, I’ll probably use that loadout.

Edited October 17, 2021 by GrandpaPhil

[GrandpaPhil]

Unfortunately, the Musee De La Marine in Paris is closed until next spring.

[wefalck]

It would be interesting to see, where the Osprey-author got his wisdom from. Was there any reference given ?

 

From the mid 1850s own the French began to modernise old gun barrels from the 1820 to the 1850. They turned them cylindrical at the rear end and shrank steel tubes on to increase their tensile strength. They were also rifled to take projectiles that were given 'noses' to fit into the rifling. In the late 1859 they also began to experiment with breech-loading and some of the old barrels were converted into breech-loaders. This led to the Modèle 1858-60 artillery. The Modèle 1864 artillery saw newly constructed rifled breech-loaders. In 1867 they were again improved - but still no match for the Krupp breech-loaders

 

There were a range of calibres, but they do not match excatly the numbers given above by Osprey - France had been metric since the beginning of the century. The smallest was 14 cm, then 16 cm, 19 cm, 21 cm and 23 cm (quoting from memory at the moment). As SOLFERINO was commissioned in 1861, this narrows the choice to the 1858-60 establishment. The carriages will be more complicated, as there have been many different types, depending on where they were going to be used.

 

However, on http://www.dossiersmarine.fr/f_fco.htm it is stated that SOLFERINO only received the above armament in 1868. When first commissioned she carried apparently 36 smoothbore (?) 30-pounders and 16 50-pounders, presumably of the 1852 establishment.

 

I have done research in the library of the Musée de la Marine and people there were generally helpsful. I have not tried 'distance' enquiries, other than telling them I would be coming around to look for this or that. This kind of research has become more complicated now, as their library and archives have been permanently moved out of Paris to a distant suburb (a not so nice area neither ...) - before, I could just hop on a bus and it dropped me right in front of the museum.

 

My normal route is to talk to my acquaintances in the Association des Amis du Musèe de la Marine (AAMM, the association of the friends of the museum), who are very knowledgeable or can point me to someone else. However, this navy of Napoleon III is not so well researched.

Edited October 18, 2021 by wefalck

[Chapman]

Hi!

A new book entitled French Warships in the Age of Steam 1859–1914 by Winfield will be published soon.
That could bring new insights.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Chapman

[GrandpaPhil]

The author of the Osprey book didn’t cite anything in the section where he talked about the Solferino and the Magenta.  
 

In the further reading section the author pointed people to the Conway’s and Jane’s Press books.
 

I don’t think much was a match for Krupp.  Krupp was legendary.

 

The 36 smoothbore 30-pounders and 16 50-pounders line up with the 52 broadside guns (not sure what caliber) that came with my Solferino.

 

In other news, I found a good rigging plan for a 3-masted Barquentine in Harold Underhill’s Deepwater Sail, for the Magenta.

 

In the same book there is one for a 3-masted barque, which will be important when I rig the Solferino (I can’t just leave it as a hull, plus I have the perfect spot for it in my office).

[wefalck]

For the rigging, there are various contemporary French and British textbooks on the subject, some of them also available as ebooks. They might be better then Underhill, who mainly deals with late 19th century merchant ships. Somwhere in another post here on the forum I listed most of the late 18th to early 20th century rigging books I am aware of.

[GrandpaPhil]

Eberhard,

  Thank you very much!

 

The research and the learning is my favorite part of model building.

 

[Louie da fly]

I have found Osprey books to be unreliable. If you can get a better source it would be good.

 

Steven

[GrandpaPhil]

Steven,

  I am going to buy Conrad's All The World's Fighting Ships 1860-1905 before I start cutting.

 

I photocopied the main deck of the Solferino to begin the process of reconciliation with the 1859 builders plans.

 

The primary purpose of that build, at this point, is for research of the Magenta (which is mostly identical).

 

The bow is to the right.

 

At first inspection, on the stern is a raised platform that was not shown, either in the model in Paris, or in Orel’s Solferino.

 

But I want to build Magenta as designed/first built, so I will add it.  

There is also a platform on the very stern, which is a grating.  That will be included too.

 

To the very right on the drawings (the far bow), there looks like gun emplacements.  I’ll show those too.

 

The plans also show an extra set of ladderwells going down into the hull by the main platform amidships.

 

I’ll have to take that into account as well.

 

This will definitely be a learning process, but it will be fun.

[Louie da fly]

This is looking very good, Phil. I'm glad you're going to be checking a more reliable source than Osprey.

 

I'm loving your research process. This is becoming a very interesting project indeed. Nice that you're allowing yourself the time for it while you're finishing your Victory. It means there's no real rush and you can take the time to dot all the I's and cross all the T's before you actually start building.

 

Steven

Edited October 22, 2021 by Louie da fly

[Roger Pellett]

Yeah,

 

Osprey books seem to be an example of “too much of a good thing.”  I started buying them many years ago to use their color plates for painting model soldiers.  They have now expanded to cover  campaigns, military hardware, tactics, and now ships.  I have been unimpressed with those books dealing with maritime subjects.

 

Roger

[wefalck]

Indeed, their naval books I have seen are colourful, but being tertiary references, of rather limited value.

 

Just looked up MAGENTA in 'Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1860-1905' (secondary reference) and there MAGENTA is down 16 55 pounder smooth bores, 34 6.4 in (= 162 mm) breech-loaders M. 1860, and 2 8.8 in (= 224 mm) rifled muzzle-loaders. This sounds quite credible and I will have a look, what I can find about these guns in my primary references.

[GrandpaPhil]

4 hours ago, wefalck said:

Indeed, their naval books I have seen are colourful, but being tertiary references, of rather limited value.

 

Just looked up MAGENTA in 'Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1860-1905' (secondary reference) and there MAGENTA is down 16 55 pounder smooth bores, 34 6.4 in (= 162 mm) breech-loaders M. 1860, and 2 8.8 in (= 224 mm) rifled muzzle-loaders. This sounds quite credible and I will have a look, what I can find about these guns in my primary references.

Thank you very much!  Much appreciated!

[Louie da fly]

10 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

 I have been unimpressed with those books dealing with maritime subjects.

 

Unfortunately, the same applies to mediaeval military subjects - apart from a couple written by a friend of mine.

 

Steven

[wefalck]

OK, I had a look into

 

MINISTÉRE DE LA MARINE ET DES COLONIES [Ed.] (1873-1876): Aide mémoire de l’artillerie navale.

 

which covers also the legacy guns that may have been still around in 1873. The most likely guns I have identified are:

 

The 16 cm rifled muzzle-loader that was adapted from an earlier 50 lb cast-iron gun by turning down the rear part and shrinking on some steel reenforcing rings.

 

 

The 16 cm rifled breech-loading gun that was also adapted from an earlier cast-iron gun by cutting off the rear end, and turning it down to receive steel reenforcing rings.

 

 

Below is the lock for this gun:

 

 

Depending on where both types of 16 cm-gun were deployed, there were different types of carriages.

 

In the battery this type was used:

 

 

 

While on the upper deck this type was used:

 

 

The 22 cm rifled muzzle-loading gun was converted from an earlier howitzer in the same way as the 16 cm guns:

 

 

 

Now for the carriage there are many different options in the literature. Not sure that the two guns were used as chase guns, as their barrel was relatively short. However, I have the feeling that they may have been mounted in pivoted slides. Once I know, where they had been placed on the ships, this will probably narrow down the choices.

 

I have also detail drawings for the various accessories of the guns, such as breech-ropes, wedges, tampons, etc.

 

If you need them, I can provide you with the higher-resolution scans. Just send me a PM with your email address.

Edited November 3, 2021 by wefalck

[GrandpaPhil]

@wefalck Thank you very much for the information!

 

It is very greatly appreciated!

 

There are two emplacements in the bow:

 

 

The gun trajectories are marked on the main deck plan.
 

Thank you very much!

[wefalck]

I did a bit more research on what presumably are the chasing guns, namely the 22 cm-guns. The plans from the Atlas de la Genie Maritime indicates some sort of curved low sill or threshold (seuillet) behind the chasing ports, but the model in the Musée de la Marine does not seem to show this. The deck seems to be flush:

 

 

I would have assumed that somehow the sill would have served to anchor the slide-carriage. On the other hand, the model does not sport any slide carriage at all. What looks like the 22 cm-gun is lashed to the bulwark just behind the quarterdeck:

 

 

The carriage does not appear to be an ordinary 2-wheeled carriage as pictured in my previous post for the 16 cm-guns. Unfortunately, my photograph is too pixalated to see clearly (even on the full-resolution image). A possible candidate could be this one (from LAFAY, 1850):

 

From LAFAY, J. (1850): Aide-memoire d'artillerie navale.- 721 p., 50 pl., Paris (J. Corréard).

 

It is strange that the 'Aide Memoir' of 1873 do not list any carriage for the 22 cm-gun. It was probably pretty obsolete.

[GrandpaPhil]

Thank you very much for the information and the scans!

 

I’d like to show the guns run out in the bow. That to me is half the fun of building a warship.
 

I might mod my Solferino model to run out the bow guns too.  The Solferino kit looks like it is directly based off the Paris model.

 

I ran into another interesting issue that I am going to have to be careful of during the construction of the hull.

 

The hull itself is very thick, with the interior planking, the frame, the outer planking and the 4.7” of armor in the main armor belt.  I will have to plan carefully for that, particularly regarding gunport and window sills.

 

The sills for the Solferino kit are about 5/32” thick which for 1/200 scale, is correct.

 

On the Magenta’s plans they are almost 1/2” thick on the above diagram.

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by GrandpaPhil

[GrandpaPhil]

I’ve been learning a lot about the structure of Magenta from building the Solferino.

 

The hull is pierced in 108 spots for windows and gunports in the Orel kit.  
 

One difference I noticed is that the builders plans only show 94 gunports/windows.

 

I am building from the plans as designed, so there will only be the 94, but that is definitely something to watch for, for the rest of the build (read planning process for now).

Edited November 12, 2021 by GrandpaPhil

[Louie da fly]

I'm loving the research on this one. It's great to have this information available. In particular I like the information on the conversion of the guns by adding reinforcing rings. A clever and elegant (and economical) solution to updating old guns to serve new needs.

 

Overall, fascinating stuff!

 

Steven

[GrandpaPhil]

This build might end up with a foam board framework.

Edited November 21, 2021 by GrandpaPhil

[rwiederrich]

On 11/21/2021 at 10:26 AM, GrandpaPhil said:

This build might end up with a foam board framework.

Wow...what a project.....

 

I'll be watching this build....

 

Rob

[KeithAug]

A remarkable amount of plan detail available given the age of the ship Phil. It all looks rather exciting. I wait the build with anticipation.

 

 

[GrandpaPhil]

Thank you all very much for the comments and the likes!

 

I bought a stand for Magenta today:

 

 

When you rearrange your house means that you are fully committed to your project, lol.

 

I also put the first ding in my new truck, hauling this and a couple pieces of furniture, for the Admiral, today.

 

Oh well, I bought it for a work truck, lol.

Edited December 18, 2021 by GrandpaPhil

[lmagna]

I marked it sad for the truck not the sideboard or the modeling content. The first dings are always the worst no matter how small they are.

[ccoyle]

Once it's dinged, you're back to the realization that it's just a material thing -- an expensive thing, but a thing nonetheless.

[GrandpaPhil]

Yep, and it will make a good story about how I dinged my truck building model ships, lol.

Edited December 18, 2021 by GrandpaPhil

[mtaylor]

Now that's being positive and thinking ahead.  And admiral obviously believes in you on this.    

[Ras Ambrioso]

Truck ding aside, that is a fabulous piece of furniture and will sit perfectly with Magenta on its top. 

[GrandpaPhil]

I’m paying very close attention to how the Solferino’s bulwarks are going together.

 

I’ll be copying the cross section drawings, in scale, over to Magenta’s plans.

Edited December 19, 2021 by GrandpaPhil