HM Sloop Echo 1781 by VTHokiEE - 1:48 - Cross-Section

[VTHokiEE]

Mill shopping was a fun diversion and thanks for the tips - I'll be certain to do some reading and probably keep a look out for the vice - I think the dividing head will wait until I need it (given the price tag). Any other tooling that would be useful right out of the gate?

 

Back to the build - I'm not the type to sit so I have been working on cutting out frames and finally glued up a portion of the dead flat (fyi - these are scrap parts but I wanted to see how things looked put together to see how I needed to improve). I already knew they wouldn't make the cut, but I am a little encouraged by what I see (I currently feel in over my head). My take away is that this was close (but no cigar) and hopefully I can close the gap without wasting too much more wood (but I'll be doing my part to keep the lights on at the sawmill 🙂. Without enough sharpening my chisels are breaking the other side on the wood instead of cutting it which is causing me issues (I will probably resort to files until I get a sharpening setup). I'm also struggling to get a nice sanding in on the frames - hopefully practice will improve that.

 

 

[druxey]

When using a well sharpened chisel, to prevent breakout on the far side of the cut, you should a) cut thin slices off and b) use a hardwood block underneath to support the part. Your photos show that you are getting the hang of things!

[dvm27]

On a professional woodworkers site his process is to halve the distance to the pencil cut line with each pass.  This works well for me. It does take some practice to keep your chisel vertical but you'll definitely get better at it over time. I just purchased some diamond sharpening stones and leather strop and they are working better for me than my old water stones.

[VTHokiEE]

Thanks @druxey and @dvm27, all great advice (I had been trying to take too much wood off at once and having a better stop under should help).

 

27 minutes ago, dvm27 said:

I just purchased some diamond sharpening stones and leather strop and they are working better for me than my old water stones.

I was about to purchase a sharpening setup based up the beginning of TFFM Vol 1 - with the veratis water pond, two grit stones, etc. Would you suggest your method to someone with minimal sharpening experience? Or do you recommend that I stick with the water stone method?

[Old Collingwood]

On 11/18/2021 at 2:37 AM, VTHokiEE said:

Well it maybe too late for that 😂. I inserted brass wire and then trimmed it flush. I’m not altogether certain how I could blacken the wire ends prior (getting the perfect length cut before installation seems tricky). Would you recommend using something different (seems like copper wire would fit the bill next time potentially…)?

Tim could you  use a punch  to  bury the  pin then put a tree nail in ontop of it?

 

OC.

[druxey]

Whether water or oil stones, or diamond grit for sharpening is a matter of personal taste (I use water stones), but a good sharpening system like Veritas is a must, in my opinion. I could never get a truly sharp edge before I bought a sharpening guide. 

 

You know whether the edge is sharp by the sound it makes as you slice through hardwood. It should make a nice crunch like cutting a crisp apple.

[dvm27]

4 hours ago, VTHokiEE said:

Thanks @druxey and @dvm27, all great advice (I had been trying to take too much wood off at once and having a better stop under should help).

 

I was about to purchase a sharpening setup based up the beginning of TFFM Vol 1 - with the veratis water pond, two grit stones, etc. Would you suggest your method to someone with minimal sharpening experience? Or do you recommend that I stick with the water stone method?

I’ve always used water stones but really like the diamond ones better as they sharpen much faster. The trade off is price though. But, as Druxey wrote, the Veritas guide is a must regardless of the stones you use.

[allanyed]

Druxey,

 

I believe you have chisels from Mihail.  If that is the case are you using the Veritas guide system with the chisels from Mihail?  I have not had success in using my Veritas unit for these small chisels, but would love to.  It works great for chisels of about 1/4" inch wide and wider, but not so well (for me at least) for smaller blade widths. 

 

Greg and Druxey,  do you have a go-to angle that you prefer on your Veritas system or do you vary it for different chisels?

 

TIA

Allan

[druxey]

Allan: The Veritas system is for full-size tools. For miniature ones you either have to hand-hone (tricky!) or design your own honing guide/fixtures. Usually 25 degrees is my preferred angle as it's an all-purpose one. 

[glbarlow]

13 hours ago, VTHokiEE said:

stick with the water stone method?

I followed Derek and the you tube video he referenced by using various grits of adhesive sandpaper, 220, 320, 400, 800, 1000, 1200 adhered to a flat tile (or glass). That plus the Kell honing guide and a small amount of honing fluid on the sandpaper works great.  Once they’re sharp the 400-1200 is all I use to keep them tuned up to a 30 degree edge (½ inch of the chisel extended from the guide).  
 

Don’t forget to condition them by flattening the back side, just run them perfectly flat on your sharpening surface a few times.  Stone or sandpaper paper, the Kell guide was a game changer for me. Mine are perfectly sharp now.  
 

[EricWilliamMarshall]

On 11/27/2021 at 10:26 PM, druxey said:

You know whether the edge is sharp by the sound it makes as you slice through hardwood. It should make a nice crunch like cutting a crisp apple.

Yes! If the chisel is that sharp then you can cut end grain without crushing some of the wood. The sharper the blade, the less force is required (although it does always feel that way but it will feel easier to control).
 

To use water stone well (in my opinion) you have to develop a feel for full contact between the chisel and the stone. Full contact means you are removing metal from across the entire surface. Partial contact means you are creating a bevel or facet. Developing this feel takes time. I should note sometimes there is a change in the sound when full contact is made. It took me months to get in the ballpark and years to nail it (with a nod to Bill Marshall and Steve Peng for guidance).
 

One way to work on this is to color the part of the blade you want to sharpen with a sharpie marker. Take few strokes and see where metal was removed. Smaller blades are even harder to feel.
 

I’m a fan of 25 degrees; you will see recommendations for higher numbers. Generally, those angles work better where more force is used, like cutting mortises for furniture.
 

I have found success sharpening the dockyard mini chisels and gouges with a water stone for flat and outside curves and sandpaper or diamond files for the inside curves but I don’t know what the ‘canonical’ way to sharpen such small tools.  I’m also partial to using strops or very fine yellow water stones for tasks that need super sharp edges.

 

I would love to have water stone system with a water feed but even those systems are subject to a bit of wobble which hamper the sharpening. Note that any machine process is more dangerous than a hand process.

 

Jigs are the quickest way to get an edge that is flat unless you are comfy with the feeling of contact I mentioned before. Jigs for curved blades are rarer and a bit trickier and usually for larger blades used in wood turning.  I will also note lots of folks do fine with somewhat sharp blades.  

 

If you are curious, I can suggest a few books on the subject.

 

 

 

[allanyed]

Glenn,

What is the narrowest blade that the Kell holder will take?

Thank you!

Allan

[VTHokiEE]

1 minute ago, allanyed said:

What is the narrowest blade that the Kell holder will take?

According to the site it goes from 0-1 inch (http://richardkell.co.uk/honingECom.htm)

 

Thanks @EricWilliamMarshall I ended up ordering the kell guide - I don't trust my freehand at all. I'd love to know about the books; I have a ton of stuff to work through as my supplies start arriving but more information can't hurt (hopefully).

 

 

[DelF]

20 minutes ago, allanyed said:

What is the narrowest blade that the Kell holder will take?

The Kell guide handles the 1/8" Veritas chisel very well.  See here.

 

Derek

[glbarlow]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

What is the narrowest blade

The Kell tightens from the sides, so down to zero. There are two versions, one for large and one for small chisels so it more the maximum width. 

[EricWilliamMarshall]

29 minutes ago, VTHokiEE said:

Thanks @EricWilliamMarshall I ended up ordering the kell guide - I don't trust my freehand at all. I'd love to know about the books

Sure! 
Taunton's Complete Illustrated Guide to Sharpening by Thomas Lie-Nielsen (yes, that Thomas Lie-Nielsen, the famed tool maker). It starts with kinds of tool steel, heat treatment and abrasives. Then machines and jig and then chapters on sharpening various tools. https://www.amazon.com/Tauntons-Complete-Illustrated-Sharpening-Taunton/dp/1631860860/

The Perfect Edge: The Ultimate Guide to Sharpening for Woodworkers by Ron Hock (yes, he is that Ron Hock, yet another famous tool maker). It has a similar range: tool steel metallurgy, heat treatment, abrasives and chapters on sharpening various tools. https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Edge-Ultimate-Sharpening-Woodworkers/dp/1440329958/

The Complete Guide to Sharpening by Leonard Lee. Again similar topics. And again a similarly famous tool maker. 
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Sharpening-Leonard-Lee/dp/1561581259/
I honestly don't have a fav among the ones above; I find they complement each other. 

And a gem of a book regarding the odd-shaped carving tools like bent gouges and the like:
Woodcarving: Tools, Material & Equipment by Chris Pye - Pye (a carver not a tool maker!) has a  number of good books on carving but this one has a bible on sharpening and other details regarding the setup and use of carving tools.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1861082010/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i5 
There is a reprint (newer and pricer): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1635618142/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i2 

It isn't a carving book but a book on carving tools. 

[Trussben]

I use a Worksharp 3000 system for my full size chisels and stones for my really small ones.

 

 

[VTHokiEE]

A belated Happy New Year to everyone following along! Santa was generous this year and I found myself with a Proxxon MF70 under the tree. With any tool (at least for me) there is a learning curve and I have spent some time becoming acquainted with my new toy (before this is all said and done I imagine I'll be making another order for cedar from Joe). I finally was able to get a (slightlyt) improved start on the dead flat and I think I'm ready to continue on. The mill is nice, it certainly is helping speed along sanding the internal curves of the frames, but my first attempt (in post 91) wasn't that much worse than where I'm currently at (but it certainly is a fun toy and I'm excited to have it).

 

 

[glbarlow]

I love my mill,  I’m always learning new things it can do. Nice sander.

[DelF]

Welcome to the mill club Tim!

[VTHokiEE]

Closing in on the finish line for the dead flat.

 

 

So treenails, using a Bynres draw plate I was able to get a bamboo BBQ skewer down to a 0.018". This took me a little while to figure out. After several failed attempts I built a jig (see here) to slice down the skewer to small sections to get through the largest hole (remember to pull through the flat side - found that out after an attempt or two). Then pulling several times (at different angles) through each hole I slowly stepped through the plate down to 0.018". Then I made a few treenails to see what it looked like in a test piece (old scrap version).

This picture is right after I applied some WOP and the side on the right lightened up after drying (but showed the difference in grain for each piece). The left side is the better side (the right was my first attempt and had too much glue). My question is what is an appropriate spacing or placement for the treenails? How close to the top of the piece should they be? or how close the side? I'll look through some other builds so see if I can find some good pictures, but they can be a little hard to see. Thanks for any advice!

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by VTHokiEE

[glbarlow]

No help on tree nails. Your frames are looking great. Turning the mill into a spindle sander is paying off.  I remember assembling all those frames for my Fair American, it is a lot of hard work.

[Trussben]

Typical spacing is 1/3 the width or height of the timber, so on a 9" timber you would place the treenails 3" from either edge, same deal with the chock - if its a 12" chock then they should be 4" from the ends. See TFFM Vol1 page 88 as it describes this perfectly.

[VTHokiEE]

1 hour ago, Trussben said:

See TFFM Vol1 page 88 as it describes this perfectly.

Thank you! I need to read that entire book; I was trying to using the index but it doesn’t depict each reference. That was exactly what I was looking for.

[VTHokiEE]

A brief foray into drilling small holes by hand for beginners (I'm pretty certain this is all common knowledge that I learned for myself unfortunately) and then a few more picture of tree nailing to go along. I had purchased a few sets of PCB micro drill bits and have become very frustrated used them by hand. My main issue is that when you use them by hand they don't seem to clear the wood all the way through and instead leave "screw-like" traces. I then inevitable try to pull them out to clear the hole and snap the bit off. I believe this would be resolved if I had a drill press and a clamping system that allowed me to hold the entire frame, which I do not so I was left searching for an alternative. I realized that I needed to get some HSS drill bits and soon after that I realized that I was uncomfortable trusting any set on Amazon to actually live up to the specified sizes. In the end I ordered several 75 and 76 gauge bits from McMaster-Carr and so far they are working like a charm (I really only needed the 76, but in my worry I grabbed some 75 as well).

 

These are the cheap PCB bits that I'm about to swear off for hand drilling:

and here is a picture of one of my 76 gauge HSS bits in a pin vise:

I finally feel more confident drilling holes and would recommend the switch to anyone in a similar situation. Hopefully my PCB bit saga (which surely have their place, but not at the end of my pin vices) will help someone in the future. And a few more pictures to go along with the build.

 

With any luck I'll be finishing up my second frame shortly, but I don't intend to raise any until they are all completed. In the back of my mind I keep thinking that I'll end up redoing the first one in the end as hopefully my skill will increase as I move along (that's the hope anyway) and its a very visible frame being on the end.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by VTHokiEE

[druxey]

I'm sure you'll be getting up the learning curve quickly! I used a pin vice for drilling small holes using HSS bits for years before I could afford a decent hand-held power rotary tool. I held one forefinger over the far end of the tool to steady it (very little pressure!) and rotated it with the other hand. I had very few breakages after that with even #78 bits.

[BobG]

1 hour ago, VTHokiEE said:

I realized that I needed to get some HSS drill bits and soon after that I realized that I was uncomfortable trusting any set on Amazon to actually live up to the specified sizes. In the end I ordered several 75 and 76 gauge bits from McMaster-Carr and so far they are working like a charm (I really only needed the 76, but in my worry I grabbed some 75 as well).

 

Thanks, this is good to know. I've broken too many cheap drill bits that I got from Amazon as well. I should know better...you really do get what you pay for...

[glbarlow]

5 hours ago, VTHokiEE said:

of one of my 76 gauge HSS bits in a pin vise:

I found these particular drill bits to be junk. They broke faster than I could use them.  Too bad as they seem like a good idea in their design. (The cheap ones, not the one in the pin vise).

Edited January 30, 2022 by glbarlow

[glbarlow]

4 hours ago, druxey said:

decent hand-held power rotary tool

I’d be interested to know what that is. I’m fine using a pin vise, all the rotary ones I’ve found are either too fast or too bulky and mostly both. 

[tlevine]

I absolutely love my carbide bits but I would never consider putting them in a pin vise.  Any lateral pressure and they will break.  That is just the nature of the metal; it has nothing to do with price.  I buy resharpened ones from Drill Bit City.  As far as rotary tools are concerned, I just use a small cordless Dremel.  It is variable speed.  The collet holds the bit steady enough to prevent breakage.  For a task like drilling the holes in frames, I put the bit in the sensitive press on my Sherline mill.