Building larger scale ships

[Dave_E]

Hi All,

 

What's your opinion on building larger scale ships? Obviously they are going to be longer and higher, that goes without saying. Suppose that's not an issue with your space. Are they easier to build? Pros and cons of adventuring into larger scale? Is a 1:50 that much different than your run of the mill 1:64?

 

[reklein]

Depends on whether you're building a skiff or a battleship. Personally I like 1/200 scale for larger subjects. Something so the model comes out under five feet. For sailing ship 1/64 is a nice size or even 1/96 like in the case of the Revell Constitution. Either way ,have fun.

[Barbossa]

Hello Dave,

 

Well at first sight we can not ignore the evolution in the (plastic) kit market. Many of us remember the Airfix standards : 1/72 when WW II planes were involved and 1/600 for HMS Hood, Bismarck, etc...At present  Trumpeter has the same ships on a 1/200 scale at our disposal, not to mention the 1/48 U-boat. Although 1/700 is still popular ( Aoshima, Fujimi, Revell,...) but many plastic ship brands  seem to stick to the 1/350 scale.

 

Worth mentioning : the PhotoEtch aftermarket.

 

Wooden ships: I don't know as many  (not all) Jean Boudriot monographs as well in the past as at present suggest a 1/48 scale. Be it in scratch building.

 

Another thing is the choice of your model : a big ship (the obvious HMS Victory) in a 1/90 scale or an elegant schooner or chebec ( Occre Cazador ) in 1/60?

Both are challenging : the line up of 3 impressive rows of guns or the extra detail a 1/60 and certainly a 1/48 scale might offer ?

Talking about gunnery : IMHO, the rigging of the guns is probably more realistic in  a large scale (1/48 => 1/64) and also more "doable" rather than in a1/90 or 1/100 scale. Sails ? Same story, I guess.

 

Are you planning to build several ships ? Working in the same scale can be an advantage, but this is only me talking.

My conclusion ( if I da

 

[Barbossa]

... ( was interrupted) If I dare speaking so : the 1/64 scale is a very good compromise between size, difficulty, and detail

[allanyed]

The larger the scale, the easier it is to show fine detail and subsequently the more time that is involved to achieve it.  Look at the one or two 1:24 builds here on MSW to get an idea of a REALLY large model.  Classic British models were mostly1:48 but the contemporary model of Lady Nelson (your current build) at RMG is 1:32. 

Allan

[Jim Lad]

As Allan said, the bigger you go the easier it is to build very small detail, but how big do you want to go?  This model of HMAS 'Voyager' was on display at the Australian National Maritime Museum a couple of years ago.  The detail is stunning, but at a scale of 1/2 in to the foot, the model is just over 16 feet long!!!

 

John

[mtaylor]

47 minutes ago, Jim Lad said:

As Allan said, the bigger you go the easier it is to build very small detail, but how big do you want to go?  This model of HMAS 'Voyager' was on display at the Australian National Maritime Museum a couple of years ago.  The detail is stunning, but at a scale of 1/2 in to the foot, the model is just over 16 feet long!!!

 

John

The old front page (pre-crash) was model of a Japanese battlewagon.  It was huge.

 

4 hours ago, Barbossa said:

Wooden ships: I don't know as many  (not all) Jean Boudriot monographs as well in the past as at present suggest a 1/48 scale. Be it in scratch building.

 

True that.  Harold Hahn did several different scales.    I find the scale of the plans is something that can be ignored since I convert them to my preferred scale of 1:64 due to space.   If I had the room when I started, I would have gone larger.

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

I wrote a few times about this subject: each scale has his own challenge.

 

The smaller the scale, the more "visual aid" you will need to wear all the time.

The larger the scale, the easier it will be to handle  "with more fingers".

To think that the larger means the easier to build is false.

To build at 1/24 will require larger tools: like a larger saw bench, a larger scroll saw, larger files, etc.

The smaller the scale, the more the details will disappear.

Space will always be an issue; while you work and when you will have finished. If you try to find a spot in the house before to begin, you will not build it...

but if you build one, you will find space.

 

Actually, I am working on a third one at 1/24. Would I come back at 1/48, no. One of the interesting facts about working at this scale is that the comprehension of the wood ship construction is much easier simply because "you see the parts closer to their real size" and you see things that you could not see at 1/64 by example.

 

 

[Jaager]

On 12/3/2021 at 10:54 AM, Dave_E said:

Pros and cons of adventuring into larger scale? Is a 1:50 that much different than your run of the mill 1:64?

First off, I like to term 1:48 = museum scale - at least for for the wooden vessels up to 1860.   The vast majority of plans from the pre 1860 eras are 1:48 and most of the models that are contemporary with the original vessels are also 1:48.

It makes for a convenient base scale for description and comparison with other scales.

 

1:50  - at first seems like it is the same as 1:48 - but the difference is significant. While any one dimension is 0.96 less at 1:50, model is a 3D entity and the over all model is actually 90%  the size of museum scale

1:64  - is 42% the size of museum scale..  Each dimension is 0.75 less.

1:60  - is ~50% the size of museum scale.  Each dimension is 0.80 less.

 

Gaetan's 1:24 model is 2.0 larger each dimension, but the model is 8 times larger than museum.   He had to use 8 times as much lumber.

 

1:96  - is  0.5 for each dimension  but the model is 0.125 as large as museum scale.

 

1:72  -   0.67 per   but the model is 0.30 the size of museum scale.

1:76  -   0.63 per   - the model is 0.25 the size of museum scale

 

1:120  -  0.4 per  -  0.064 the volume.   I explored this for the first rate St. Philippe -  a first rate @ 1:60 is imposing,  1:120 would be less intrusive to display, but the carvings would be a nightmare.

 

!:192    0.25 per  - 0.015 the volume  - I think this is the preferred scale of our published miniaturist artists.  At first glance - 1/4 the size does not seem so bad,  but when it is actually  fabricating something that 1.5% of museum scale - just what they have accomplished is awe-inspiring.

[Cathead]

To me, one of the significant tradeoffs is how to handle details at scale. The larger you build, the easier it is to get details in scale, but you're also under more pressure to include those details and get them right. The smaller you build, the harder it is to get details in scale, but you can also start eliminating them. Examples in wooden ships could include treenailing, rope thickness, wood joinery, sail stitching, and even just the texture and grain of the wood itself.

 

As for examples of large-scale ship models, here I am a few years ago with a 1:20 model of the Esmerelda at the Museo Maritimo Nacional in Valparaiso, Chile. 

 

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

34 minutes ago, Jaager said:

1:48 = museum scale

 

1/48 is the largest scale easy to handle in a room.

 

This is why most of the models are built at this scale considering also the height when masts are installed.

For the same reason, I chose 1/24, because it is the largest I can move in the workshop.

If I wanted to add the mast, I would have to choose 1/36.

[BobG]

On 12/12/2021 at 6:23 AM, Gaetan Bordeleau said:

Space will always be an issue; while you work and when you will have finished. If you try to find a spot in the house before to begin, you will not build it...

but if you build one, you will find space.

 

Amazing! I'd love to see some photos of those huge models you have built, Gaetan. Could you post a few photos of them?

[vaddoc]

Could I also add a couple of potential challenges with large scale.

The planks get pretty thick and resist edge bending. Tolerances need to be tighter as gaps will show. Bevelling edges will be needed. The building starts to get closer to the real thing which is something I enjoy very much!

The requirements in timber, supplies and tools grow geometrically. I remember a picture Gaetan had posted with the pear wood that was delivered to his house. Must have been a few trees in that pile!

 

 

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

1 hour ago, BobG said:

Amazing! I'd love to see some photos of those huge models you have built, Gaetan. Could you post a few photos of them?

 

I did a log for 3 models: the first one a 74 guns. This log disappeared with MSW 1.

The second one  was a  64 guns:  

 

 

A third one, also in this forum, in construction, another 74 guns:

 

 

I insert a photo of the first 74 guns:

 

1 hour ago, vaddoc said:

The planks get pretty thick and resist edge bending.

 

As Vaddoc said, edge bending is difficult. This easy way to solve the problem, is to cut the plank with the curve in it. It does require more wood, but the palnks are more stable this way.

 

Rekon also did a model of the 64 guns at 1/24 scale on this forum:  

and there is a model of a 74 at the Maritime french museum" as in the last photo.

 

Model ships were sometimes built at 1/24 scale to teach to the engineers the construction and also at 1/12 to easily show how the rigging was done.

 

[BobG]

Thank you, Gaetan! I'll enjoy reading over your build logs. I'm sure I'll be impressed and learn a ton as well!