Crochet Cotton?

[David Lester]

Here's a question I haven't seen raised. (Maybe I've just missed it, I'm not sure.) Is there any reason not to use plain old crochet cotton as rigging line? It comes in a wide variety of sizes, enough to match any rigging size needed and it comes in a wide variety of colours - many different naturals and dark brown and black. It seems to have a nice finish and it's quite inexpensive. Does anyone use it? Are there reasons why it shouldn't be used? I'm just curious.

Thanks,

David

[Gregory]

I would say a drawback, is that it doesn't have a rope-like appearance.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Gregory

[Dave_E]

7 minutes ago, Gregory said:

I would say a drawback, is that it doesn't have a rope-like appearance.

Actually it is wound, just like rope. Looks like rope up close. What I do not know about is the fuzz… 😳

[wool132]

From a post by tlevine in 2019 …

 

Jonathan

[BenD]

I've tried Crochet yarn before and it doesn't make the best rope. The DMC stuff in the smaller sizes is ok but good luck finding some of that. 

 

Gutermann Skala makes perfect fuzzless rope. Colors 464 tan and 696 Dark brown can be found on Wawak.com 

 

Another amazing thread to use is Gutermann E thread. It is hard to find so I order it directly from A&E. I plan on making it available for sale on my website hopefully soon. shipping this stuff is going to be costly... If can be found on https://www.toko-kurzwaren.de/ but it can take over a month for them to ship it to you. That site also sells Serafil thread in all sizes and colors.

[Gregory]

2 minutes ago, BenD said:

I've tried Crochet yarn before and it doesn't make the best rope.

The original posts seems to be talking about using it off the spool for rigging line.

 

I would be curious to see examples in various sizes that have the appearance of rope..  The crochet thread I have seen wouldn't work for me..

[BenD]

7 minutes ago, Gregory said:

The original posts seems to be talking about using it off the spool for rigging line.

I have seen some yarns out there that do have a decent rope like texture but they are honestly only marginally better looking than kit "Rope". Then there would be the trouble of finding all the sizes one would need.

[Chuck]

If you are looking for cheaper alternatives that look like rope right off the spool…your best bet is to check Ebay regularly for old linen fishing line.  Hopefully you will find a bunch by one seller so its all the same color.  Remarkable stuff.

 

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/255482484038?hash=item3b7bf15546:g:ze8AAOSwC-RiU42a

 

 

see this link for example

[glbarlow]

If you're going cheap seems like the Amati/Caldercraft kit rope isn't going be improved by these alternatives - just use the kit stuff.  I used it on my first models, I applied bees wax (not needed on Syren rope of course) to address the fuzz, those models are still holding up fine, especially since I no longer post close up photos of them.

[David Lester]

Hi guys, thanks for all the interest. I'm not talking about using it to make rope; I am talking about using it right off the spool. It's available in a wide range of sizes from size 100 which is very fine to about size 3 which is quite heavy.

Here are a couple of pictures of some size 10 which is just a tiny bit larger than my regular .5mm line, which I believe is from Amati.

To my eye, it looks quite a bit like rope, there's a distinct twist to it and it's only a little bit fuzzy. So, I'm not trying to advocate for it, just trying to determine if people feel it's a suitable rigging material or not.

 

 

OK, I'll fess up - as an experiment, I used it for all the rigging on my Niagara, using a few different sizes. I can't just remember them all off hand, but size 10 is about .5 mm and either size 20 or 30 is about .25mm etc. I thought it was easy to work with and I'm reasonably pleased with the result. I think it looks as good as the Amati line that I've used on most of my other models. On the other hand, I didn't feel it was particularly superior either. And I'm not trying to compare it to handmade rope, which is in a category all by itself.

 

I don't believe I'll rush back to it, but I was just curious if anyone else has experimented with it in this way. Now that I've added serving to my modest repertroire of skills, I am slowly working up the nerve to try my hand at making my own rope.

David

 

[Oldsalt1950]

David, I don't see why it couldn't be used for rigging. It may need a bit of Bee's wax on it to knock down the frizz a bit. The question really is how it preforms over time and various changes in humidity. I also assume it could be sprayed with hair spray to protect it a bit. 

 

Jim

[allanyed]

I think one problem is that there are dozens of sizes of blocks and rope on any given ship.  For our models, 5 or 6 sizes would probably be satisfactory for most folks, but using only 2 or 3 might be an issue for some.  If you go to the Danny Vadas spread sheet in the articles base here at MSW you will get all the rope sizes based on the formulas he took from Lees Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War although he used the wrong formula for the years 1670-1710 so every mast, spar and rope is the wrong size for that particular era.  Before 1670 and from 1711 to 1860 the spread sheet seems to be accurate. 

 

The rope you show indeed looks like rope but is very fuzzy and from the photo appears to be very shiny as well.  But, if you are happy with it, that is the crux of it. 

 

Allan

[Roger Pellett]

Re: Chuck’s post above. “Cuttyhunk Hard Twisted” linen fishing line is nice stuff.  Unfortunately it is no longer made.  I bought a supply from the old (yellow box era) Model Shipways years ago.  Look for it on EBay.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Roger Pellett

[Dziadeczek]

A while ago I bought some cotton cordonnet thread by Lizbeth - for crocheting, tatting and knitting purposes. I bought two sizes, nr. 40 and nr. 80 - just to experiment a bit with twisting model ropes from it, since it appears that the French DMC no longer makes theirs excellent threads, as well as the German Anchor bid the dust too.

This thread already comes pre singed by a gas flame, so the fuzz is greatly reduced (for all those who for some reason are unable or unwilling to do it by themselves). It is made in China, but from an excellent Egyptian cotton, even, with long fibres, with no knots and unevenness.

First trials turned out surprisingly well. The ropes came nice and even, the residual fuzz was eliminated by running the ropes through bees wax and burning it away.

One other thing - pretty much all threads nowadays come as right hand twisted in factory, so, in order to obtain right hand twisted ropes from them, I had first to 'untwist' the factory twist and continue twisting threads on my ropewalk, to end up with right hand twisted ropes. But, that did not seem to be a problem...

Here are some pics.

[allanyed]

Further to Dziadeczek's post I found the following information which is good for us. 

 

Mercerized cotton is a special kind of cotton yarn that is more lustrous than conventional cotton.  It is also stronger, takes dye a little more readily, produces less lint, and is more resistant to mildew. It also may not shrink or lose its shape as much as "regular" cotton. 

 

It has also been described as shiny.   I am not sure I like to idea of more lustrous, but the other attributes are helpful for modeling purposes.

 

Allan

[David Lester]

That's quite interesting Allan. The shininess isn't actually an issue. It might look a bit shiny on the skein, but it doesn't look shiny on the model. I'm not advocating for its use, just raising the question as a point of interest. I tried it and thought it was fine, (by that I mean comparable to kit provided thread,) but I'm not likely to rush to use it again. I was just curious about anyone else's experience.

David

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

13 hours ago, Dziadeczek said:

A while ago I bought some cotton cordonnet thread by Lizbeth - for crocheting, tatting and knitting purposes. I bought two sizes, nr. 40 and nr. 80 - just to experiment a bit with twisting model ropes from it, since it appears that the French DMC no longer makes theirs excellent threads, as well as the German Anchor bid the dust too.

This thread already comes pre singed by a gas flame, so the fuzz is greatly reduced (for all those who for some reason are unable or unwilling to do it by themselves). It is made in China, but from an excellent Egyptian cotton, even, with long fibres, with no knots and unevenness.

First trials turned out surprisingly well. The ropes came nice and even, the residual fuzz was eliminated by running the ropes through bees wax and burning it away.

One other thing - pretty much all threads nowadays come as right hand twisted in factory, so, in order to obtain right hand twisted ropes from them, I had first to 'untwist' the factory twist and continue twisting threads on my ropewalk, to end up with right hand twisted ropes. But, that did not seem to be a problem...

Here are some pics.

  I wouldn't bother untwisting the cords, but just make rope of the opposite twist (running the drill in reverse on the Syren's Rope Rocket).  It will still look OK on a model.

[Dziadeczek]

4 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  I wouldn't bother untwisting the cords, but just make rope of the opposite twist (running the drill in reverse on the Syren's Rope Rocket).  It will still look OK on a model.

 

If you make a rope from right hand twisted threads, your rope will be a left hand twisted type. If that's what you want, it is OK. But, as you'll notice, majority of ropes on a ship, are right hand type ropes, so you'll need left hand twisted threads in order to obtain right hand type rope from them.

Always, the opposite - left hand type threads give right hand type rope, and vice versa.

In my case, I had some right hand factory twisted threads (see pics), so I had to 'untwist' them on my ropewalk to obtain left hand twist on them, and then further continue left hand twist on them in order to finally obtain right hand twist rope.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Dziadeczek

[vaddoc]

The good quality cotton threads will produce excellent rope. The only problem is that if there is any tension, the rope will stretch. 

[shipman]

Would cotton based rope benefit from being pre-stretched before use?

[vaddoc]

It will still stretch. I found Mara threads very good alternative as suggested by Chuck. A lot of discussion in relevant threads.

[Dziadeczek]

18 hours ago, shipman said:

Would cotton based rope benefit from being pre-stretched before use?

Yes, definitely!

I always stretch my ropes just after they are twisted and removed from the ropewalk. Grab both ends with your hands and give the rope a stretch, until it is no longer 'springy'. Cotton ropes (especially longer ones on larger models) will in time stretch a bit, even after your pre stretching, due to changing weather and humidity in the air. For running rigging, it perhaps would be a desirable effect - looser, hanging ropes looking more natural, but for standing rigging (like shrouds or stays) not so much. So, you'll have to mount those rather tightly on the model, (but not too tight otherwise you might break the topmasts, or bend them excessively. )

Edited May 26, 2022 by Dziadeczek