Furled , unfurled or no sails -Preference

[Canada Steve]

Hi Folks

 I am at the  point on my Apostol Felipe where I have to decide how to display the sails or not to have them at all and I was looking for some input from members . I am really struggling  on this decision.

So i am not just looking for an opinion but also a reason why you like a cetain look, I'll start this with my thought process

 

Unfurled sails  can look a little bulky and cover up too much rigging (which after spending hours doing  seems a shame) but it can also give the ship some presence kind of a grand feel

 

No sails  can certainly show off rigging but Im not sure about the overall look

 

Furled sails ...I am on the fence about .

I know it is ultimately my decision but I am looking for some insights  that I might not have considered ( oh the little things we do sweat over)...thanks

[mtaylor]

Steve,

Have a look at the Articles..  particularly this one:  http://modelshipworldforum.com/resources/Rigging_and_Sails/ScaleSails.pdf  

[Stockholm tar]

Steve,

 

I fully expect to get shot down here    but personally, I don't particularly like ship's on stands under full sail. That view probably stems from my museum background and the fact that the model is not 'afloat'. If it's a waterline model, then you might either have the ship under full sail or perhaps, rather more interestingly, with reduced canvas, or all sail furled with the ship at anchor.

 

However, I do like some sail on a model, thus I usually opt for furled or 'clewed up' canvas. On my present model, the Sherbourne, I am thinking of having one of the sails – probably a square topsail – set, but not drawing and with some crew figures working on it. That, I think, would add a little more interest to the overall model.

 

As you say, sails can hide much of the rigging that you spent such a lot of time working on, which is a valid point. That you have mentioned this 'problem' perhaps means that you perhaps wouldn't be satisfied with the full sail option?  Do think about the alternatives. 

 

I'm sure you'll hit on the right solution, but which it will be is of course entirely up to you.

[Canada Steve]

Hi guys

Thank you for your feedback I appreciate it very much ! I think I will go with a combination of furled and unfurled .This way I can show both methods and also keep a clear view of the deck .Thank you again for taking time to pass on your informaton ...steve

[BareHook]

I like the look of sails, but when I get to the point of having to fabricate and add them, it will come down to whether my sailmaker (wife) is able to sew them to the needed precision, plus the difficulty of installing them as I have not yet done any rigging. I hope they work-out but won't kill myself trying to make it work.

 

Ken

[Stockholm tar]

Steve,

 

Great. I look forward to seeing what arangement you come up with.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Stockholm tar

[Canada Steve]

I have been taking pictures of the build from the start  for my own records ( and to show friends how much work goes into one of these ships) never with the intent of doing a build log  but maybe I should post them and help get the sites inventory back up

[Stockholm tar]

Steve,

 

I think we'd all like to see your model, so do post your pictures.

[Modeler12]

Steve I had the same thoughts and settled on the following for my USS Constitution, a war ship.

 

I am in the process of adding six sails. The spanker, jib and flying jib, and the three topsails. It is my understanding that this was one of the usual rigs for ships in battle. Others, such as the main course and perhaps the top gallant sails could be furled, but I decided not to do that because of the extra work and 'busy scene'. There are many paintings of ships in battle and they usually show all sails rigged, but unless there was a slight breeze, that was not usually so because it took too many men to handle the sails instead of the cannons.

 

Here is my first sail installed.

 

Notice I have not yet finished the rest of the mizzen mast at this point, because the shrouds need to go up first.

 

PS. I just remembered the picture below of the USS Constitution after its last overhaul. I think it was when it arrived in Boston. It had the sails rigged as I mentioned above.

 

Edited February 24, 2013 by Modeler12

[dgbot]

Putting sails on a model depends on the modelers choice.  I think it depends on what you are building and how you want to present your model.  As for furling sails I will cut the sail in half and the result is a very realistic bundle.

David B

Edited February 24, 2013 by dgbot

[Canada Steve]

Thanks again everybody for the feedback , I am working out with some paper how best to cut out some of the bulk of the sails that came with the kit .I know that if they were real size they would be far too coarse  but I quite like the texture of the sails and  sewing is not my forte nor my wifes so I am going with the kit sails just trimmed down a bit.  thanks again ......Steve

[Ulises Victoria]

I think I lean more towards furled sails. That way you can have both standing and running rigging, and not having the sails to cover your rigging. Here's a few photos of my A.L Endeavour

[Keith_W]

Arguing that you should leave off the sails because it might hide your rigging is the same as arguing that you should leave off the top deck because of all the effort you put into detailing the second deck. If you like the look of sails, then go for it. I personally like sails ... IMO the ship looks incomplete without it. No car modeller would make a model of a car without tyres. I don't know why ship modellers keep making models of ships without sails. 

[dvm27]

I'm not a huge fan of furled sails in static models but only because they usually appear over-scale and bulky. However, it can be done, and to good effect. For example see http://www.shipmodels.com.ua/eng/models/elite/le_rivoli/index.htm and the beautiful work of Dr. Mike. I've read somewhere that decreasing the canvas (model sail) size by 25% helps keep proportions correct.

[Blue Ensign]

I'm rather with Greg on this one, and prefer the bare stick look on stand displayed models, and there is a great precedence for this with contemporary models of the eighteenth century. A ship in harbour for any length of time would have the sails taken down so it's not inconsistent to display a model 'bare stick'

 

The problem with kit provided sails is that the material is mostly way over scale and lacks the detail that sails should properly have such as the reinforced areas. Out of scale stitching and poor reef points can further detract from the overall look.

 

On the other hand fitting sails does allow the modeller to show the function of the running rigging and I do like to see sails on waterline models in a diorama setting, but that's the only situation I would personally fit them.

 

In the end tho' it's all down to personal preference and what individual modellers like.

 

B.E.

[popeye2sea]

On a slightly different vein,  does anyone have any experience fitting sails so that they can be worked, i.e. being able to change the set of the sails from clewed up to fully set?

[CaptainSteve]

My last build was the OCCRE Apostol Felipe and I chose to do her with full, unfurled sails. Feel free to check out my bathtub below for a look.

 

Having said that, I really do like the furled or semi-unfurled look and plan to use it on my current (post MSW discovery) build ...

 

[CaptainSteve]

On a slightly different vein,  does anyone have any experience fitting sails so that they can be worked, i.e. being able to change the set of the sails from clewed up to fully set?

 

How about rigged with servo motors and an IC board to set the rigging/sails so that the ship can be displayed in numerous operational stages.

 

I guess this would requuire some serious collaboration between the nautical historians and the tech-heads ....   

[JRB9019]

I'm not a huge fan of furled sails in static models but only because they usually appear over-scale and bulky. However, it can be done, and to good effect. For example see http://www.shipmodels.com.ua/eng/models/elite/le_rivoli/index.htm and the beautiful work of Dr. Mike. I've read somewhere that decreasing the canvas (model sail) size by 25% helps keep proportions correct.

 

Greg, I've just been blown away by Dr. Mike's work. Wow, is all I can say - it also goes a long way to show how the addition of furled sails really adds to the model. On the same note the A.L. Endeavour model is fantastic too.....

 

I might just take the bait when I get that far on my own model (if I ever do!)

 

 

Starting to go down the path of adding sails (furled or otherwise) does raise many additional questions though, such as :

 

1.  I presume that there is no point in just adding furled sails to a model without the appropriate running rigging, leading on to the question - how to find out what running rigging is needed, what additional belays, blocks, cleats etc, etc. are needed, where to fix them on the model etc, (as they won't be shown on the plans if no sails are intended).

 

2. Again, I refer to a kit that is not planned for the addition of sail,

    I assume that you can't just rig your ship with the standing rigging and then add the sails and appropriate running rigging as much of the standing rigging will get in the way. In that case, (and knowing that every ship is different) are there any standards / rules / advise around as to sequencing the rigging?

 

Well, that will do to start with !!

 

Any comments/help/tips would be very gratefully received....

 

Regards

[Modeler12]

JRB you have a lot of questions that cannot be answered in a few sentences. I suggest you get the book by Lennarth Petersson 'Rigging Period Ship Models'. It will answer all your questions and then some by way of more than 100 pictures.

[ScottRC]

Steve I had the same thoughts and settled on the following for my USS Constitution, a war ship.

 

I am in the process of adding six sails. The spanker, jib and flying jib, and the three topsails. It is my understanding that this was one of the usual rigs for ships in battle. Others, such as the main course and perhaps the top gallant sails could be furled, but I decided not to do that because of the extra work and 'busy scene'. There are many paintings of ships in battle and they usually show all sails rigged, but unless there was a slight breeze, that was not usually so because it took too many men to handle the sails instead of the cannons.

 

Here is my first sail installed.sail 13.jpg

 

Notice I have not yet finished the rest of the mizzen mast at this point, because the shrouds need to go up first.

 

PS. I just remembered the picture below of the USS Constitution after its last overhaul. I think it was when it arrived in Boston. It had the sails rigged as I mentioned above.

conny rigging 2.jpg

What you are showing is how I like to present the sails.  Enough to show to ship is being worked yet not so many that it detracts from the other details.  I also do not like to rig up every sail nor to I like to rig as if the yards are drawn down in ordinary.

[Garward]

If to speak about the curtailed sails, it is worth looking here at this model: Model of the Linear ship "Panteleymon-Vyctoria" Alexey Baranov http://www.shipmodels.com.ua/eng/models/elite/panteleymon_victoria/index.htm

 

[Modeler12]

What you are showing is how I like to present the sails.  Enough to show to ship is being worked yet not so many that it detracts from the other details.  I also do not like to rig up every sail nor to I like to rig as if the yards are drawn down in ordinary.

Scot, I decided to use the six sails as the USS Constitution used during her last sail in the harbor of Boston. Someone mentioned this was one way for battleships to enter an 'engagement'.

 

The six include the spanker, three topsails and two jibs. I have raised the spanker and jibs and am now working on doing the same with the three square sails.

 

Like you said, this will show some action while looking at the deck with all its 'furniture'.

[Scoot]

The build I am working on. Model shipways "Charles W. Morgan" will be shown with sails, in some configuration, near her home port.

My intention will be to show her during the ritual of dismantling the "try works". Close to home, Hold full of oil, Happy men, being close to home, after four years at sea, 

and perhaps the captain, letting flow some of the excess grog.

Depends on the prevailing winds and the season of the year. Long way to go before that point, but that will determine the set of the sails.

It's not just a model, but a history.

 

Scoot

[dcicero]

Generally, I like the looks of a ship model without sails for many of the same the reasons people have posted here:  sails on models are often out of scale and distracting; sails on models displayed on pedestals just don't look right; sails on models obscure the rigging.

 

That said, I do think sails look good on models of small boats.  It's easier to get the scale right.  The sail plan is simpler on these vessels, which means the sails can actually be rigged completely and properly.

 

 

 

Dan

[JRB9019]

JRB you have a lot of questions that cannot be answered in a few sentences. I suggest you get the book by Lennarth Petersson 'Rigging Period Ship Models'. It will answer all your questions and then some by way of more than 100 pictures.

 

HI Jay

 

Thanks for your suggestion. I have the book! When I originally purchased it, I took a look, but it didn't make much sense. Now, I'm starting to understand it better and yes, it really is good advise.

 

For general interest, I spoke to Jotika here in the UK yesterday, They were really helpful, and as my build (Pickle) is a schooner, they also suggested two other books:

   - The Global Schooner: Origins, Design and Construction 1695 - 1845 by Karl Heinz Marquardt and

   - Eighteenth Century Rigs and Rigging, again by Karl Heinz Marquardt.

 

Apparently, the first book lists every spar, line, halyard and block, giving size, dimensions etc. which can then be used to calculate the correct size for the model being built. Of course all the belaying plans are there also. So that's on my book list for sure.

 

Finally, we have a tall ships festival near where I live next week and there will be a schooner there that more or less resembles Pickle, so I'll be down there taking loads of detailed pictures for future reference....

 

John

[capt_pirate]

On 3/1/2013 at 10:44 AM, Ulises Victoria said:

I think I lean more towards furled sails. That way you can have both standing and running rigging, and not having the sails to cover your rigging. Here's a few photos of my A.L Endeavour

 

 

 

 

Hope mine looks somewhat like yours one day.

Rigging needs fixes & restoration. Coming here is the 1st step, I'm a complete newbie.

I inherited this.

Question: 

Did you deliberately leave it unpainted ? 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25 by capt_pirate

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Just look look at 19th c. clipper photos showing furled sails, and its amazing how compact and 'un-bulky' they can be when sitting atop a yard - and there are a couple MSW builds that simulate this.  Forget trying to take a cloth sail having the full area, then trying to bunch it.  It will only take a narrow strip of thin cloth to look right.

 

 

  The top of the sail where it is bent to the yard or to jackstays is concealed by the folds of the sail plopped on top of the yard, secured by a few gammoning lines.  Therefore there is no need to have jackstays at all, or to attach (bend) the bit of cloth to the yard ... no need to worry about reefing lines (and reef tackle can be omitted without much notice - even though it would still be there otherwise) ... and no need to fuss with cringles on a bolt rope or even to sew a bolt rope around the sail perimeter - only on the 'mouse ears' on the clews (bottom sail corners) sticking out, which will be the only sail edges that show.  Gammon lines are fastened for quick release as shown below.  Before jackstays,  one end of the gammon could have an eye splice, and the quick release would be tied after first passing through the eye.

 

 

  No need to include a luff line, and one can have a couple bunt lines emerging from under the folded sail, thus no need for bunt blocks on the yards ... or the bunt lines can be omitted as well - another 'sleight of hand', as there will be plenty of rigging displayed on the model:  Lifts for the yards, downhaul tackle where applicable, halyards, clew lines, sheets and braces.  Of course, none of this affects the standing rigging done with darker rope.

 

  Before furling, the clews are hauled up by deck hands.  Men on the yards lean forward and grab partway down the sail (an arms reach) and pull it up and over the top of the yard (leaning back a little as they do this in unison).  Then by leaning forward again, that fold of sail is held by body pressure against the yard as another bit of sail is pulled up.  Once gathered, the clews are pulled out a bit and allowed to hang.  Canvas that is about .025" thick would only be .0005 at 1:48 scale - thinner than a sheet of paper !  So I did a little exercise to tape a strip of paper to a simulated yard, then fold the corners up and then folded the lot (origami style) on top of the "yard" ... and was able to tug out the clews to become 'mouse ears'.

 

  Below are a couple pictures of the concept to remove as much cloth as practical to portray a furled sail on a model.  Instead of individual gammoning lines, I just spiraled a line over the folded paper for convenience.  On a model, there would be separate gammons spaced on the yard.

 

 

[popeye2sea]

Gaskets

[Lieste]

In addition to set, furled or non sails, you can also show them reefed (less effective area, with the upper part gathered in the furl), or clewed up (the clews raised to depower and very roughly reduce the set area from raising the foot of the sail, but without a tight furling.