HMS Dragon 1760 by Siggi52 - FINISHED - Scale 1:48 - English 74-Gun ship

[albert]

Hi Siggi, fantastic work.

[dvm27]

Coolest build ever, Siggi. What's next in the dockyard - the fore part of the ship?

[mtaylor]

Wow... that is beautiful, Siggi.  I'm looking forward to whatever it is you're doing next.

[CaptainSteve]

Outstanding, Siggi !!!

[AnobiumPunctatum]

I second the compliment of the others. I find it very interesting what you do with the color on your model. I got a lot of inspiration from this.

[Siggi52]

Good morning,

 

thank you for your kind words. I'm still not ready with this ship and sorry, I would't build the first part of it. This would be a one of a kind model for me. The next ship would be build in the bread and butter technique, with all possible short cuts    

 

My next project in spring are two Kentucky rifles. One for a friend and one for me. That are then the last rifles I build. 

 

Here some pictures from the last rifle I build. It's after a rifle by William Antes. 

 

 

 

 

It's more simple to build than a ship model. You have only to cut away any parts that did't look like a rifle 

 

 

 

Regards,

Siggi

[AON]

Cut away the parts that didn't look like a rifle ! ? !  

 

You make it sound easy.   

 

it can't be so simple..... can it ?  

Edited December 5, 2015 by AON

[Siggi52]

Alan, you have to know how a rifle looks like and that is much more simple than such a ship 

 

Siggi

[AON]

Now you are being modest.

As a former hunter I appreciate the ergonomic design of a perfect grip and shoulder rest, balance of the stock, length, etc...

Then there is the fit and finish of a real wooden stock (not that plastic crap they sell now) that brings a smile to my face.

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

yesterday I build the stanchion with the bitt piece and this morning I installed them. The deck is also fresh oiled. The next things would be the stanchions, transom and taffrail at the stern.

 

By the way, the captain is back   When I look at the bitt piece, I find it very low. But it's exactly after the plan!

 

 

 

Regards,

Siggi

[druxey]

The crosspiece is placed low so that you could pass a line under it and haul it up tight on the other side. It gives one a good angle of pull. Over the years I've discovered that nothing on a ship was placed by accident: it's all part of a well thought out or well developed design.

[Siggi52]

Druxey, thank you for your explanation. I thought the same thing, but did't know it exactly and in relationship with the captain it looks very low.

 

Cracker, try it harder. She did't look very happy. Thank you all.

 

Regards,

Siggi

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

the taffrail is ready! That was't so easy as it looks, but now fresh under paint, all the hardships are forgotten.

 

 

 

 

 

Regards,

Siggi

 

 

[albert]

Hi Siggi, beautiful model, fantastic  work.

[Mirabell61]

super model Siggi,

 

Nils

[druxey]

Yes, those serpentine curves - plus the transverse curve - are very tricky to do, but you've nailed it, Siggi!

[dvm27]

"Wasn't so easy as it looks"? That's an understatement as it looks bloody difficult Siggi. Lovely job!

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

Thank you for your kind words and likes. Today I finished the rails of the poop deck, except for the scrolls at there beginning. I think I build these tomorrow. 

 

 

 

 

Regards,

Siggi

[albert]

wonderful

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

now with the scrolls the ship is more or less ready. I see a light at the end of the tunnel. 

 

 

But the rest must also be done. There is the stairway to the poop deck. Normally there are two stairways, but the Thunderer/ Hercules has only one in the middle of the deck.

I think it's a model of the Dragon, because of the dragons at the stern. The label in NMM says only this:

 

 

 

I followed in most cases the plan and not this model, so should I better build two stairways? In the plan is now stairway drawn, but I think not that this means there was't any.

 

Regards,

Siggi

 

[mtaylor]

Siggi,

 

Given the time period, it might be that the 74's had only one ladder and then later, they changed it to two as the needs evolved.  I'm thinking that one is what it probably had as they copied the French design early on.

[druxey]

I imagine only one access ladder was needed until there was armament mounted on the poop deck.

[Siggi52]

Good morning,

 

I think that Mark is right. After Boudriot, even the 74 gunner of the 1780th have only one ladder. Earlier english ship models have mostly two ladders or none! I think that this is only a shortcut, because it has nothing to do with the design of the ship. But they have build the intern ladders!

 

The poop was in battle the place where the marine's have there place behind the netted hammocks. So there was may be a lot of traffic in battle and that the reason for two ladders and you have a ladder away from the battle. 

 

So I really dont know what to build. From the artistic view, two ladders look better and you could see the binnacle and wheels better. Also the helmsman could see better forward. I think that they may have changed it later to a two ladder version. 

 

What do you think?

 

Regards,

Siggi

[mtaylor]

This was early on in the English development of the 74 which they based their designs on the captured French 74's. 

 

The French tended to limit access to officer's country and were pretty protective of it.  They had a "watchkeepers" bench usually overlooking the ship from the poop or quarterdeck (depending if the ship had a poop) and that bench also doubled as an arms locker for the officers on watch.  The French also had a covered companionway that was only used by officers to access the highest aft deck. 

 

Referencing AOTS Bellona shows 'as built' in 1760 with one and it was after the rebuild of 1778-1780, that there is a model showing two ladders. Which says that the Brits, at some point, decided they needed two ladders.

 

Bottom line... I'd go with one based on the historical references if it's "as built".   If it's later in life after a large rebuild, then two ladders but I suspect there were more changes during the rebuild than just two ladders.

[src]

Siggi,

If you plan to enter in a contest then I would think you should go with what you can document. If however your goal is to look at it and know you did the best you could than go with what looks better to you and justify it with the "refit" back story.

Just my thoughts.

Sam

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

many thanks for your detailed answers to my question.

 

Mark, where did you find that statement in the Bellona book. I fond only under external details, page 62 E19, ladder from quarterdeck to poop, but the drawings 19/1-2 showing the ladder from upper gun deck to quarterdeck!

 

Regards,

Siggi

[mtaylor]

I believe that E19/1 and 2 are the Quarterdeck to Poop ladder plans as the ladder seems to be at the middle of the beams..   Catch is, I can't find a poop deck plan, nor see any other ladder going to the poop.  Maybe I'm misreading this E19 drawing. I assumed the label was correct but it shows stanchions around the ladderway which wouldn't be on a ladder at the end of the deck.   Did the poop deck get totally missed by Lavery?

 

I'll look at some other resources I have... I like a good mystery and this one is a puzzle...

 

Edit:

I'm shrugging my shoulders... this is getting a bit weird... and my apologies...

Hero, Hercules, and Thunderer --- NMM plans and/or models indicate one ladder from the poop to the quarterdeck....

Ajax, Edgemont, Bellona --- NMM plans and/or models indicate 2 ladders. 

All these are contemporary of the Dragon....  It looks like either way could be right...

Edited December 17, 2015 by mtaylor

[Siggi52]

Hello Mark,

 

the ladder in picture 19/1 is between two beams and has a rail! So it looks at the plan of Bellona / Dragon except the rail. There is no ladder to the poop drawn and to my knowledge there is no plan of the poop deck.

 

 

The ladders to the poop deck have no rail and no beams above in front of the ladder. Sorry my english, but I hope you understand what I would say. It is bad, but real that Lavery has many mistakes in this book.

 

As I stated earlier, I believe that the model of Thunderer/ Hercules is really the Dragon. The model at page 26 is the same model from wich are the pictures I posted under #382 and the model of the coppered Bellona (page 24) is from 1778, after some greater repairs.

 

I think I go with that what Sam say's and build two ladders. May be one ladder was only a try, but did't work for them. There are older and younger models with two ladders, the model of the Thunderer/ Hercules is the only one I know with one ladder.

 

Regards,

Siggi

 

 

[druxey]

The contemporary NMM (RMG) model of Thunderer/Hercules, SLR 0310, has one central ladder to the poop deck, and no breast railing. 

[Siggi52]

Yes Druxey and the pictures I posted under #382 are from that model. But sorry, there is a breast railing. Is my english soo bad ?    

 

Siggi