Louie da fly

Thanks, people. J11 - it's not a kit. I scratch built it after drawing up the plans, based on a copy of the Anthony Roll picture, the coloured reconstruction picture on the first page of this log, and a reconstruction cross-section, all from Björn Landström's book The Ship. I must have been pretty keen when I was seventeen. Unfortunately my plans went the way of all flesh in the 50 years between building it and restoring it - I've no idea what happened to them. It'd be nice to have kept them as a record. Snug Harbor Johnny - just be aware I've changed my technique a bit - now instead of making the strip thick enough to get several deadeyes from one "triangle", I make it the final thickness of a single deadeye, and only try for one. Otherwise the extra ones just split. And I put the three holes near the top (not too close!) of a rectangular piece of wood with enough wood either side of the holes - and at the top - to avoid splitting, and I only do one deadeye at a time. And don't shape the triangle until the holes are in place. I expect your Vasa is a larger scale than mine anyway, so you probably won't have as much of a problem. Steven

I tried to find the Tapestry on-line; no luck. But Vroom would have been 29 when the battle took place, so there's a good chance he was at least familiar with the type of ship the Revenge was. He may have actually talked to people who knew what she looked like - he may even have seen her before she departed on her last voyage. On the other hand, he may have just made it up . . . Me too. I got hooked on Tolkien in my teens, way back in the 60's - bought the three-volume hardback LOTR out of my pocket money. I just recently re-read the Silmarillion. Only took about a week to recover . . . Steven

But did you get blood on the model? It doesn't count otherwise . . .

Lovely crisp detail work. Very impressive. Steven

Not a bad idea, Mark - head it off at the pass (as they say in the cowboy movies). Steven

Fascinating, Círdan (love the name, BTW - as in Círdan the Shipwright?). I've never seen these before. You're probably right. In Henry VIII's time it would have been more likely (as shown in the Anthony Roll), but by the reign of Elizabeth the palette was apparently a lot wider, if Matthew Baker is to be believed. I note that all the ships are depicted with only three masts. Is there any documentary evidence for the Revenge having four, or is that just imagination on the part of the kit manufacturers? Steven

In Germany a reconstruction has been built of the Oberstimm-type ship, called the Fridericiana Alexandrina Navis. It was built in 2016 and has recently been under maintenance, renewing the paintwork etc. https://www.egea-ev.de/projekte/ https://www.geschichte.phil.fau.de/files/2019/10/Ancient-Warfare-13.2_FAN_Dreyer.pdf For those who have facebook, you can see more at https://www.facebook.com/roemerbootFAN Steven

A bit of the history . . . And here's a video from the people in the UK who are building a full-sized replica: Here's their website - https://saxonship.org/?fbclid=IwAR2tmg3x4sTXGqSmQi60mBwmmIaJzlpQfs9BK1PWbSn9NkONbBwpwiF8gVQ fascinating! Steven

Thanks for all the likes and comments. Keith and Jeff, I think card is as likely to tear as wood is to split. But I'm amazed they make triangular card deadeyes that small. Druxey, I considered plastic, and even got some plastic to try out (just the lid off a coffee jar), but haven't got round to it. Now that I seem to have a workable technique I think I'll keep on with it (and anyway I'd prefer to use wood if I can - traditional material and all that). Once I've made all the 2mm deadeyes I have to work out how to make smaller ones - wood just won't do the job. But I have some ideas, probably involving thread and glue to make a composite "blob" that will act as a deadeye. Steven

A word of warning - building a mid-16th century vessel at 1:200 scale means that your biggest deadeyes are triangles 2mm on each side. This is not easy to do. The corner of a triangle splits off far more easily than would happen if the deadeyes were circular. Holes big enough for the lanyards to pass through are likely to split the wood the deadeyes are made from, no matter how tight the grain. I tried various ways to make them, preferably mass-produced (the main shrouds alone need 48 deadeyes). I tried making them from the walnut sheet I already had - immediate splitting. Then I tried carving multiples from pear wood, which has a much finer grain. After several failed attempts I found the best way is to have a rectangular strip of pear wood a fair bit wider than the deadeye, so there's extra wood either side of the holes. Put the three holes in with a dressmaker's pin, but not too deep, to avoid splitting. Then I thinned the pear wood a fair bit. Then individually carve triangles, one at a time, and split each one off from the base piece. They still split pretty easily. I glued the split ones back together before moving forward. I discovered that I had the deadeyes too close together in the base piece and I wasn't able to make a good-looking triangle - had to cut the bottom apex off so it didn't interfere with the next deadeye. So the final configuration has the triangles just a bit further apart (there are two in this picture - the top one split so I had to glue it back together - which is why one of the holes is gummed up; the bottom one worked well). And here's the best one (the bottom one in the picture above). Then glue the bottom of the shroud around the deadeye. This holds the deadeye together so it won't split when you push the pin all the way through to complete the holes for the lanyard. Note that there are already two pairs of deadeyes in place - I made these when I was 17 years old. I have no idea how I did it back then . . . Once I've made all the 2mm deadeyes (and now I'm fairly confident I can do them in large numbers) I have to work out how I'm going to do the small ones for the topmasts and mizzens . . . Steven

Damn! I didn't check the title at the top of the page! I just re-checked Mott's TAMU paper The Development of the Rudder A.D. 100-1600 and the major change in side-rudder design occurred around the 12th or 13th century, from symmetrical to "unbalanced". This made it a much more efficient aquafoil (like an aerofoil, but in water). Anything before that followed the same general design (with minor variations) as those of the Ancients. Steven

Thanks, Dick. This Byzantine representation of Jonah getting chucked over the side (BL Add MS 19352 Theodore Psalter 1066 CE. Constantinople. f.201r) seems to show a spindle just where yours is - I've seen a reconstruction drawing of YK11 that has a sheave in the top of the mast, but below the hockey stick (which seems to make the hockey stick itself redundant, so is probably an incorrect interpretation). And this (Sacra Parallela. Bibliotheque National de France Gr. 923 f. 207r -9th century) seems to show the halyard hanging forward of the mast as you describe above. That makes sense - the ship's supposed to be 6th century A.D., isn't it? Still really the classical period in a lot of ways. Steven

That's actually looking pretty good, Amos. Just remember - sandpaper and woodfiller (best made from your own sawdust - or better still sandings - they're finer particles - and dilute PVA (white) glue - that way it should be easier to match the wood colour) are your friends. Keep up the good work. Steven

You might also like to check out this thread - a good one for the first-time builder. And when you do start, make sure to make a build log - the instructions are here A great way to get help and advice - and encouragement (when it all seems too much). And - welcome to MSW! Steven

Interesting idea. As I recall, your original concept was a groove in the top of the hockey stick, following its curve. But that would expose the halyard to perhaps unacceptable amounts of chafing. As I understand it, with this one the halyard goes over the sheave and then through a curved hole in the hockey stick? Is there any contact between the halyard and the inside of the curved hole, or does it run completely free? Steven

Very interesting J11. I can't answer for the kit or its historical accuracy - I just don't know anything about it, but it looks like quite an old kit, probably from before the Mary Rose (Great Harry's little sister) was recovered. If you were as interested in converting this to as accurate as possible a model (given the current state of knowledge) as you've been doing with the Alabama it would take a fair bit of bashing. I've got a lot of information on ships of this period which could be of value to you in this regard. On the other hand, there's a lot to be said for just building it as it comes out of the box. Steven

Photos! We need PHOTOS!

And now Netflix has a movie about it!

There was certainly "usual practice" regarding plank widths. According to Wolfram zu Mondfeld's book Historic Ship Models, "Until the end of the 17th century the width of planks varied between 18ins and 13ins (the older, the wider), in the 18th century between 14ins and 11ins, and in the 19th century the average was 12ins. " - they steadily got narrower - whether to more easily follow the hull shape or perhaps because bigger trees had already been cut down? If you can get hold of the above book, I'd highly recommend it. I've found it very helpful indeed. Steven

I've started a Pinterest page with contemporary pictures of galleons - it's at https://www.pinterest.com.au/lowe1847/galleons/ I've still got quite a few pictures to add, but it might be of use to you - quite a few of the pictures are in colour (though most of those are not English). Steven

Nice to see your build progressing well, Meriadoc (love the name!). I'd recommend you look also at this - there's some serious research information in it that would apply very much to your own build. Of course there are no genuine contemporary pictures of the Revenge herself, and as far as I know, no descriptions of her colour scheme. So any model is an "impression" of what she might have looked like, based on the evidence available - effectively a "typical" English galleon of the right general size and armament. Regarding colours, probably your best bet is to look at contemporary pictures - not modern interpretations - of galleons (particularly English ones such as Matthew Baker's Fragments of English Shipwrightry) and take your lead from them. Oh, and say hullo to Peregrine Took for me . . . Steven

Thanks for all the likes and the nice comments. I thought I'd finished the boat, then realised I'd forgotten to add the gunwales. So here they are. I cut a sliver of wood for each gunwale, about 1/2 mm thick and just wide enough to cover the top of the planking and the frames. Then I bent it to shape gradually with a small pair of pliers - it would have been easier to bend it along the narrow dimension, but I needed to do it along the wider face of the sliver (if that makes sense), against the way it wanted to go. No heat or steaming used. Then glued it in place at one end and waited for the glue to dry. And then glued it, bit by bit, following the line of the gunwale. I had to hold it between finger and thumb till the glue dried. And did the same to fix the ends to the sternpost. I discovered that the "catheads" stuck out too far so the gunwale wouldn't connect with the stempost. So I moved them away a bit (PVA glue is nicely flexible) and tried again. I also realised one of the thwarts was not parallel to the others (see top views above) , so I tried straightening it - unfortunately it was too short now, so I had to make a new one and put it in place. And I've been experimenting with shoe polish (a mix of Dark Tan and Black) to darken the timber below the water line, as shown in the Anthony Roll. I don't want it jet black, just the colour a coating of pitch would be likely to produce. Not totally happy with it, but not bad. Note that the Anthony Roll also shows bottom of the Great Harry as black, so I'll be blackening that as well. But I need to do more experimenting with it, to make sure I have it right before I start. Equally, there's a sliver of wood I used to repair a gap in the upper works which really jumps out at you because it's so much lighter in colour than the surrounding timbers (just under the arched gunports) , so I'm hoping I can make it more in keeping with a bit of polish. Steven

Nice work, Lapinas. I like the boat especially. Steven

That's amazing. I take my hat off to you sir. Steven

Welcome to MSW Bob! Yes, by all means start a build log. The rest of us get to see your progress photos (and don't be too intimidated by that - everybody's very supportive and helpful, and there's none of us that haven't made mistakes - usually LOTS of them). Instructions are here. https://modelshipworld.com/topic/24705-before-you-post-your-build-log-please-read-this-starting-and-naming-your-build-log/ Good to have you aboard. Steven