Louie da fly

Hi Christos, Your question regarding the oars inspired me to put together a bunch of pictures from Ancient Greek sources (mostly pottery) at which has a lot of depictions of oars. As you can see, they are quite long and slender. Many of the pictures also show the oarblades clearly enough to understand their shape and size. I'm hoping this helps not only you, but also others who build models of Ancient Greek galleys. Very best wishes, Steven

That makes a lot of sense - I had my doubts right from the start about that. There's also the difficulty of fixing marble to wood - how would you do it? With glue? some kind of pin through a hole in the marble? It does leave the question - so what were the marble eyes used for? Those oars seem very thick and heavy. Are they the ones supplied with the kit?

AAAAAARRRGGGGHHHH! My heart skipped a beat as she keeled over. There's this horrible inevitability about it all. I'm so glad they raised her again. And what a beautiful ship. I'm just sorry I don't understand Portuguese. And in the final scene she is moored with the monument to Henry the Navigator in the background. Very appropriate.

Well, I wasn't satisfied with the shrouds, so I've re-done the blocks. The problem was that the block assembly took up too much room compared with the length of the shrouds themselves - like having a hammer with a huge head and too short a handle - no good (unless you're Thor, of course). Here is the "old" way and the new As you can see the "tails" below the single block and above the double block are considerably shorter, making the whole assembly maybe a centimetre (just under 1/2") shorter (about half a metre or 1'7" in full scale). As it turns out it didn't make as much difference to the overall look of the things as I'd expected - in the photo below the shrouds for the after mast have been changed and those on the foremast haven't - but I'm still glad I did it - I would have been unhappy with it if I hadn't. I've also finished the banner. Unfortunately because I'd put down a white undercoat I had to paint both sides and they didn't quite line up when I cut the banner out - so I ended up having to paint the overlapped bits to get rid of the white. A fair bit of work, but I'm pretty happy with it now. I've also finished the anchors, which have been sitting there incomplete for quite a while: I needed to add the rings and make a couple of extra stocks. These anchors are taken from those of the Serce Limani "glass wreck" which went down in about 1025 AD, pretty much contemporary with this dromon. And I've done a trial run on how I'm going to fix the shields to the pavesade - the railing that supports them. Byzantine shields were held by a pair of ropes attached to the back, called an ochanos. Here's mine - I had to use CA to get them to stick to the paint at the back of the shield. I drew the line at putting tiny metal rings on the back (and anyway, most contemporary pictures don't show them). I didn't quite get the ropes symmetrical about the centre, but I'm not too bothered - they won't be visible anyway. I'm just chuffed that I've found a way to attach the shield that would have worked in the real world - just untie the rope and you can pick up the shield. Then mounting the shield on the pavesade, with a bit of rope passing through the ochanos and tying it to the upright of the pavesade. And here's what it looks like from the outside. This is just a trial run, but it seems to have worked pretty well. Now I know what to do when I add them to the ship. I haven't quite finished changing the shroud blocks over. I expect to have that done by tomorrow. Then tidy-up - adding downhauls for the trusses that hold the yards to the masts, belaying the downhauls for the blocks and the downhaul for the fore halyard and making a coil for the free end - working out how and where to belay the tacks, adding the vangs - oh, it's all fun and games!

I've enjoyed following this build, Chris. And you've done a superb job on it.

I'm not sure I agree - I think this really is worthy of being in a museum! Looking forward to seeing the oars.

Beautiful work, Robert. I find it interesting that one of the flags included in the kit is that of the cinque ports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinque_Ports - I know she's not based on a "real" ship, but it's nice that the kitmakers have added a little detail which gives some indication of her port of origin.

Very nice, Christos. That's a very elegant hull and the oφθαλμοί are very well shaped. It came as a surprise to me when I learned that these eyes weren't just painted on - they were separate items added to the hull - see https://www.petersommer.com/blog/archaeology-history/ships-eyes-bodrum and https://nautarch.tamu.edu/Theses/pdf-files/Nowak-MA2006.pdf

Welcome to MSW, Paul. If you did a plastic Bounty, no matter how long ago, you'll find that the skills you developed back then will still be there (if perhaps a little rusty) for your plastic Constitution. However you'll probably find (as I did) that encountering MSW changes your viewpoint of what is possible - and desirable - in your model. Yes, certainly start a build log. The instructions are here ; Have fun with it. Looking forward to seeing your progress.

No worries. Note also that the copper nails are almost invisible.

That's what I'd have thought. And there needs to be enough free end not only to grab hold of, but to stop the knot from pulling through and undoing itself. I've endeavoured to do it this way on my dromon, but I have to say it looks a little strange - possibly because I haven't seen any other models where it's been done. And the thread (cotton sewing thread) doesn't act like rope - it is considerably stiffer and has a mind of its own - sticks up or out when it's supposed to hang down.

Here are some images of coppered hulls after they've been in the sea for awhile (both from the Constitution). Note the first picture shows a new sheet of copper being added to older ones, so you can see the difference a bit of immersion makes. It might be good to paint the underwater hull to resemble these, after all that work you've done to make the "coppering".

Hi, I hope this is the right place to put this. It's occurred to me that it would be helpful to have a pinned thread in this sub-forum with links to the directions for new people on how to start a build log, both for kits and for scratch builds, and also for the advice on what are the best kits for beginners. https://modelshipworld.com/topic/24705-before-you-post-your-build-log-please-read-this-starting-and-naming-your-build-log/ https://modelshipworld.com/topic/8-before-you-post-your-build-log-please-read-this-starting-and-naming-your-scratch-build-log/ https://modelshipworld.com/topic/18657-new-to-ship-modelling-but-what-do-you-build-first/ These items are already available on the forum, but I think it would be good if it was immediately available to new people who (naturally enough) make "New Member Introductions" their first port of call, so they don't have to search for them.

Hi Broat, and welcome to MSW. Looks like you're well on the way with your Constitution, and the experience you already have should stand you in good stead. Working in wood is different from plastic - the biggest difference being in the hull - in plastic it's pre-made - usually you just have to glue the two halves together (I've made a fair few plastic models, and I found I had to change gears when I moved on to wood). On the other hand, it's by no means impossible, and the tutorials on planking (probably the most daunting part of it all) are very good and helpful, and reading the build logs I've found is also of great assistance. Timber is a lot more forgiving than plastic - if you mess up you can always just cut another piece and start again. I'd highly recommend you start a build log for your Constitution - it's a great way to get help and advice - and encouragement - from the members here. The instructions are here: If you've already taken photos of your progress up to now, you could include them as a "post-dated" log to bring things up to date. If not, just start from where you are. There are also a whole lot of sub-forums on the Home Page for your questions on all kinds of subjects - plans, building and planking a hull, fittings, masts and rigging . . . I've found everybody here to be very friendly and helpful, from the veriest newbie to the demigods of ship modelling (several of whom are members). And there is no such thing as a stupid question. And have fun with it! That's what it's all about, after all.

Wonderful work!

I'm up against a similar problem with my dromon. Fortunately I have a forecastle the hawse can be stored under, but the space there is limited, and I have to find room for a number of anchors stacked in a pile as well (Byzantine anchors were very light and they had to use multiples). I think just coiling the hawse on deck where you can find a space is probably not only the best, but probably also the historically correct answer.

I agree wholeheartedly, Dick. It would be a shame to obscure that beautiful planking, and a black hull wouldn't show that elegant shape off anywhere near as well.

It's always difficult to work out a realistic shape for a ship based almost entirely on contemporary pictures. Did they shorten the thing to fit on the town seals? Almost certainly. But how much? What's a sensible shape for a merchant ship? I know I used to think of carracks as much tubbier than they really were, based mostly on contemporary pictures. It was quite a surprise to find how relatively narrow a "round" ship was.

Starting on the shrouds. Because this is a mediaeval Mediterranean lateener the shrouds are fixed to the hull with pairs of blocks, not deadeyes, and they are attached to the blocks with toggles, for quick release. I've also been working on the belaying points for the tacks. To allow the tacks to be belayed near the lower end of the yard, but also to enable them to be pulled back aft of the mast so the yard could be pulled the behind the mast to the other side I'd originally intended to add modern style "open" fairleads. Mainly because I couldn't think of any other way to do it. But looking at modern lateeners, I found they tended to use a much simpler system for belaying - just a vertical wooden rod, basically. I adapted this for the fairleads,using what amounts to a sort of bollard - put a loop around it and it can act as a fairlead and a belaying point as you choose. You can see them sticking up from the "battlements" just at the after end of the forecastle. And here is the banner still in progress. One side finished: And because I put down a coat of white first, I have to paint the other side as well, to cover up the white. A bit of overlap past the outline of the "tails" but that's intentional - this will be cut off when I trim them to shape.

Cathead, I think your post above will be valuable to anyone who takes on - not only this, but also other model kits. One thing I'm particularly impressed by is that you've put the time and effort into working out what went wrong and why - that some of it was the fault of the kit's inadequate instructions and some was your own assumptions - particularly when it doesn't really matter any more because you've already worked out how to remedy it and moved on. But that you've shared this information and your conclusions with all of us is a tremendous boon. It's good that you're now in a position to (once you've fixed it) leave this planking issue behind and carry on with more interesting and enjoyable aspects of the build. Keep up the good work, mate. This is one of the better logs to follow, simply because you are doing this extra work and explanation as you go - we all hit problems, but it's very good when the nature and cause of the problem and how it was overcome are explained.

I stand corrected - I thought you were making her without sails! She looks brilliant without them, anyway, but there's a particular beauty about the shapes of the sails of ships of this period. It must be something to do with the proportions - a beauty that such vessels as clippers just don't have.

I've been enjoying following the progress of the framing in your longboat. Beautiful work - take a bow, sir!

A-a-a-a-h I love it! Just wonderful all this careful work to restore a prized model.

Looking very good.

A very interesting vessel, Kondzik. Looking forward to your progress on this one - I have a weakness for lateeners. But I don't know how you guys manage to make things in card. It all looks too difficult. I take my hat off to you.