flying_dutchman2

The build looks excellent. I like the color green you used. It is not so bright and pleasing to the eye.

I follow you on both MSW and on MBF (Dutch forum). 

Marcus 

Today till Saturday on and off rain so no garden work. We get much needed rain whereas the South and the East of the US are floating away as they have too much rain. 

Actively working on deck items. 

Different types of bits. 

Pump

Whipstaff and how it is installed under the deck. 

Whipstaff 

This door is first cut out of balsa and sanded to specs. On the left a block of cherry with the outline of the door

Balsa door template on the left, final cherry door on the right. 

Location of the door. 

Gratings made out of cherry and walnut. 

Gratings installed on the decks. 

Door from the captain's quarters. 

Different layers of decks. 

Different installed bits 

Deck items in place. 

Deck items. 

Marcus 

Beautifully executed. Love the nails in the hull. 

Marcus 

@allanyed, @Bob Cleek, @Bill Hudson, @reklein and @Gregory

I thank you all for the information and advice. I will definitely get a draw plate and look into model RR nails.

The long black nails I presently have so few of were used for my Marklin model RR which I purchased in the 70's and 10 years ago sold all of it on eBay to someone in China. 

Marcus 

@allanyed, @Bob Cleek,

Thank you both for the info. 

Marcus 

@allanyed

Thank you for the detailed information. I will look up the name you gave me. I have not tried a draw plate and I know I should have been doing that a couple of ships back. Smallest scale I built is 1 : 48 and larger. My Fluit, the Zeehaen is 1:37.5.

The built I saw it on was from a meber by the name of Ondras. 

I've seen builts where the tree nails are too large and it looks horrible. 

I saw how Tosti did it with his Clipper ship and that was very cool the way he did it. 

Dutch ships in the 17th century used big black nails of various sizes. Several pictures from the Statenjacht Utrecht book by Ab Hoving shows how it is done. I visit friends in Holland every 2 to 3 years and then visit several maritime museums. Many models on display have black nails. I have used this as well on the Utrecht and a small Dutch merchant ship called a Boyer. I am running out of the nails an I've been researching an alternative. In the US they are called "bank pins". 

I will try the draw plate and bamboo. 

Marcus 

I saw on  a built little wooden pegs created by a hollow 0.65mm needle to be used on the hull of a ship.

Where can I get something like that and are there other diameters? 

Thank you in advance.

Marcus 

@Dr PR Thank you for the lengthy information, especially the method of how you got to the answers.

@amateur  Thanks and I will check Witsen.

@allanyed  I will let you know.

Marcus 

@Bob Cleek, @allanyed and @DelF

Thank you all for de detailed information and I downloaded the spreadsheet from Danny Vadas.

Also downloaded the spreadsheet from the Schooner thread from Dr. P.

Furthermore, because I only build Dutch merchant ships from the 17th century I asked the same question on a Dutch model site (www.modelbouwforum.nl). They refered me to books written by Ab Hoving, a member here, and an expert on Dutch ships. I have all his books 

I am going to compare the British ship measurements to the Dutch ship measurements and see how much difference there is. 

Thanks again. 

Marcus 

What are the rules for determining the thickness of rope for standing and running rigging and what formulas do you use to get to the dimensions? 

Especially large ships such as man-of-war, Pinas, East Indiaman, etc. 

When I scratch built the Utrecht, the Boyer and other smaller Dutch ships, I guessed the rigging and the results were good. Now I am building a larger ship en cannot guess the rigging anymore. 

Books I have:

C. G. Davis, The Ship model builder's assistant 

G. Biddlecombe, The art of rigging (pretty good explanations lots of tables but not how they got the numbers) 

R. C. Anderson, The rigging of ships in the days of the spritsail Topmast 1600-1720

W. zu Mondfeld, Historic ship models (reasonable explanation) 

M. Roth, Ship Modeling from stem to stern (very extensive explanations) 

D.Steel The Art of Rigging (1796) 

- Are there other books, Excel spreadsheets, and URLs where the given question is discussed? 

- What are the math formulas with answers?

- Can someone give me and write down an example? 

- How Do I read figures in tables? 

For example in Montfeld's book on page 308 and 309, Running rigging sizes. 

Mainmast, Main Course, Tye for 16th/17th century  it is 50%. 

-50% of what? 

- Where did this number come from? 

- What is the formula used? 

Then on page 308 (Montfeld), in the lower left corner there are a few sentences explaining that the figures refer to the thickness of the main stay, 0.166% of the diameter of the mainmast at the deck (100%) 

Again, how do I read this? 

It is confusing. 

Thank you in advance for answering my questions 

Marcus

Ab, 

Very nice. Will spent more time this weekend looking through the details. Thanks for the link. 

Marcus 

Thanks for all the likes, suggestions and comments.  

375 This is wat the Zeehaen presently looks like. 

376. Made the railings. Cut numerous little blocks from square dowels and glued them in place, then added a strip of wood on top and painted it all with Acrylic Mars Black which is matt. 

377 Railings 

378 Front area which has not been glued on the ship yet. The davits have been glued on an angle in place. 

379 Railings on an angle. 

380 All gratings were made from walnut and added 4 rings to the large and medium grate an 2 rings to the smaller one. 

381 Starting to work on the channels. 

As the weather gets warmer, I spend less time building and more time in the garden. This year my edible garden will be intense. 

Marcus 

7 hours ago, Meriadoc Brandybuck said:

Silicon casting is kind of costly and troublesome but would allow you to duplicate small parts accurately. 

I am going to look into this and see what the costs are. Thank you for recommending this to me. 

Marcus 

14 hours ago, Meriadoc Brandybuck said:

Can you silicon cast your sculpey work? Maybe not worth it in this case though.  

That I have never done before but probably could. 

Marcus 

Thanks for all the likes and comments.  

Last couple of days have been in the 70's F (20°C) (rare watm weather) so spend time cleaning up the flower beds and edible garden. 

Finished the tiller and whipstaff. I will install this when I am ready to put the back deck in. I built it in a way that once installed it actually works. 

The nosy cat, Boomer at 18 years. 

Gratings have been glued together and need a good sanding. Also made the mast holders (don't know the name) and the railings with the reiling pillars. 

Cut out all the different types of bits and started shaping them. 

Did some more Sculpey work. These two faces/heads need to be identical, but they are not. Will need to adjust this or leave it as is. 

Marcus 

WOW, One of the best and most detailed "read" I have ever experienced here on MSW. I have several books on rigging and they don't even come close to the details you give on various items on a ship.

Like some have said, "write a book about it" and I would be the first one to buy it. 

Marcus 

@Dr PR

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation and the spreadsheets. I will give it a go with the Fluit en come back here to comment about it. 

@allanyed

Wil let you know if it works for Dutch ships. 

Marcus 

@shipman

Thank you for the wise words. Actually, I obsess about everything and after that, I take it in stride. It is only a hobby. I am not doing any life threatening work. You would figure I would be good at it as it is my favorite exercise of building a ship. 

@Gregory and @ah100m

Thanks for mathematical formulas and I heard from others that Mondfeld is wrong in many ways. 

I do like the diameter of the "mainstay" formula and thanks to giving me examples with how you got to the answers. 

Marcus 

57 minutes ago, amateur said:

Do you have the book (including Cd) of the Tasman-ships?

There is a rather extensive rigging table on the CD. (At least, I guess that is were mine came from). Essentially the system in Dutch ships is comparable to that of the English: rope size (actually: weight) relates to the size of the mainmast (or the mainstay). You can 'rescale' the table in the book. Gives a reasonable outcome. (At least, I am still rather content with the result  )

 

Jan

LOL, I have the book and cd and I am building the Zeehaen from that book. I am looking at the table and you are correct, it is extensive. How embarrassing, I should have checked this out. (goes and hide in the closet) 

I am still interested in how to read the rigging tables in Montfeld's book. 

Marcus 

@Gregory

Yes, this will help and thanks for the math formula. I created a ropewalk last year and still need to purchase materials. If I bought all my rope from Chuck (have in the past) than it would be a expensive endeavor. 

Marcus 

Next question.

How do you determine what is the right size of line? Historic Ship Models by Wolfram zu Mondfeld cover standing rigging sizes from 16th through 19th century on page 272 and 273 and running rigging on page 308 and 309. 

How do I read this information? 

40%, 16%, etc. What do the percentages mean? 

Thanks 

Marcus 

Thanks for all the suggestions. 

@Justin P.  I do not know the diameter of the real rope. I wish I did because than my job would be much easier. 

@Jaager  Love the simple explanation and will give it a go. 

@allanyed No British vessel, I built only Dutch ships. There is much more info on rigging British ships than on Dutch ships. 

Marcus 

On my last 2 scratch build ships I have guessed the thickness of the different types of rope used. Now that I am working on the Fluit, the Zeehaen, I think that guesstimating the thickness of rope is out of the question. 

Is there a formula one uses to figure out how the thickness of rope is calculated? 

For example :

x = scale of the ship

y = real size of the ship

z = thickness of rope

Taking in account the year and nationality of the ship (1639, Dutch), or this does not matter? 

I know the scale is important which for the Zeehaen is 1:37.5.

Thank you in advance. 

Marcus 

Thanks for all the likes and comments. 

Gratings:
Started glueing 1mm x 1mm strips of basswood on basswood squares. Once dry I will cut them in 3mm pieces. Then I will turn them on edge and glue the pieces together. Once dry, a frame will be made around it and installed on the decks. (I am using the example on pg 113, 114 of Ship Modeler's Shop Notes 1 from the NRG).

Next, slowly planking the deck. The wood strips that are located where the gratings go are 8mm and 9mm wide and all other strips are 6mm wide. The average length on all of them is 200mm. Planking the decks towards the edge of the inside of the hull wall is another exercise of patience. Unlike most ships the hull wall goes straight up but on the Fluit it bends inward. Lots of trail and error.

Stern windows have been glued. 

Marcus

Steven, 

Thanks for the comment and I agree with you on the Sculpey subject. I'm just not very good with carving figures. I attempted this with basswood in my Statenjacht Utrecht built and most of the carvings look more like 2D than 3D.

What I like about building just merchant ships is that there is a minimal amount of ornamentations. The Zeehaen has a few here and there. 

On a Dutch site, modelbouwforum.nl there is a advanced builder who built "het wapen van Hamburg", he has  posted a tutorial on how to do faces in Sculpey. 

Marcus