BANYAN

Hi folks, sorry I have gone a little quiet again in this log but I have been doing a little further research to allow me to complete the booms.  I had to determine what the odd conformal shapes were on the booms near the outer end.  This also led me to determining I had positioned the spiderbands at the wrong point.  I had believed they were positioned at the GD (given diameter) when in fact they were further out in Victoria - this has led to me having to remake the spiderbands     I have still to do the new ones, but practice makes perfect they say. 

I am also trying to determine how to make the reefing combs (those conformal fittings I referred to earlier) - see the attached.  At 1:72 these are only 1.5mm deep so a little fiddly to make - still thinking on the 'how' for now.  These were used to rig the reefing pendants.  One end was led through the hole opposite it associated sheave and stoppered with a knot, the pendant was then rove through it associated reefing cringle and down through the sheave.  The tail was then worked with a reefing tackle as required when reefing the fore-and-aft sail.

The attached is my CAD drawing of the outer end of the main boom.  It shows the combs and the spiderband, and the outer sheave.  There is also an iron band on the very end/tip of the boom.

cheers

Pat

Hi Allan, I think this is probably Microsoft trying to fix/patch some of their security issues by restricting some macro operations.  I remember some time back I had to load and keep using flash or the like to keep older macros active., but MS doesn't like that either.  I know I am having issues trying to use macros I created for use in MS Word.  I just opened a version of the spreadsheet using Excell (using the latest version of Excel in MS 360) that I had downloaded years ago and there was no issue.  I haven't tried opening from the Database yet.

cheers

Pat

On 8/7/2023 at 11:35 AM, Jaager said:

I think that Desmond describes a different species of wooden ships.   The 1850s were the end of a long era of guild style shipwrights.  It seems like there is a wall not too much later.  The main stream changed to composite and then iron and steel.   The generation to generation chain of passing of knowledge about wooden ship building was probably broken - except for minor and independent yards.  The old lofting methods replaced with a translation of iron and steel lofting over to wood.  The lofting of every frame was a new practice - taken from metal methods - metal is not open to variation on the fly. 

The all bends with intervening spaces equal to the bends in width was new.  I would not trust Desmond to be relevant to any ship built before 1900 or so.

That is a very interesting point you make.  I will need to reconsider this, but I may be missing a point you are making here.  When designing this ship, Oliver Lang did not conform with the old/traditional methods of building a ship; he was of the new generation (not the Guild I believe - his father certainly was).  For example, for the Victoria he used diagonal planking (to his plan which was based on a system he developed from a Devonport boat builder), he also used an Aberdeen style (clipper) bow, and a non-lifting screw design (first fit of this 'differential screw' design by Maudslay, fitted in any warship).  The hull skeleton, especially aft, I think may have been quite different to the traditional more squared and spaced framing.

Desmond, and also ESTEP (1918), describe the building of "Wooden Ships" and, if I recall correctly, do sometimes refer back (within their text) to pre-turn-of-the-century techniques, and their descriptions do not appear to refer to the use of iron and timber in composite form for the stern timbers (that I have found so far at least).   I have not read them extensively yet, but I have not seen any reference to composite, rather than wooden building technique?  

All that said, I only raise these points to gain a better understanding, and you are probably right.  I just need to get a better understanding of the points you make to establish whether to use these authors or not.  Certainly, Oliver Lang in designing this one-of-a-kind vessel, used it as an opportunity to show the Admiralty some alternative building principles.  Victoria was certainly unique for her time, and while she looked, and was armed, similar to contemporary Gun Despatch vessels (Arrow and Vigilance Class) she was framed/built on an entirely different principle that made extensive use of iron knees, hangers, etc, but she was not a composite build.  She was also equipped with many different equipment designs such that I am at a loss to try and even make an educated guess of how her stern timbers were arranged and fixed.   From the imagery, and the Builder's Certificate, she certainly had an elliptical stern and the knuckle line also appears more rounded than the traditionally framed sterns. 

cheers

Pat

Allan, thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, if scantlings are given in that Contract, that class of ship was built on different principles to Victoria.

I have the Contract and appended Specification for HMCSS Victoria, but unfortunately, the scantlings given only cover the floors, bent timbers and roughtree timbers.  There is absolutely nothing WRT the stem and stern (nor the cant) timbers (or the deck beams unfortunately) - hence my questions here.  With no experience in drawing/lofting of ship framing, and finding nothing online nor in any book about the stern framing used in diagonally planked ships, it is doing my head in .  The best/fullest description for these timbers I have found to date are in "Wooden Shipbuilding" by Charles Desmond (1919).  PDF copies can be found online); but even here the subject is not fully covered. 

At this point, I think I will use the stern timber framing shown for British ships of this era supplemented with Desmond's descriptions, then modify all but the most aft of the after cant timbers that may lie forward of 30feet from the sternpost.  the reason for this is that Commander Lockyer (Build Superintendent) in one of his reports to the Governor of Victoria (Hotham) states that about 30 feet forward and aft of the keel was put down along with the shadow moulds, but that the remainder of the keel would not go on until the diagonal planking had been completed.

cheers

Pat

Thanks all, that is exactly the type of thing I am looking for.  Much appreciate the feedback and great info.

My real issue now is trying to interpret how the after-cant timbers will have differed as Victoria was built using Diagonal planking (to Oliver Lang's plan) whereby most of the frames (floors IAW the Contract) ended at the round of the hull.  The usual frames were replaced with 'bent timbers' which replaced the temporary 'moulds'.  These were placed midway between the floor timbers from the round to the gunwhale.  When the side planking was put on, the first and second diagonals were actually wrapped under the hull and went up the other side, and the keel (except for 30 feet of it both forward, and aft) was put on after the diagonals and then the outer horizontal layer of planking put on in a more traditional manner once the bent and roughtree timbers had been put in. 

From what I can see, I believe I would need at least a 'full' aftermost cant-timber in-situ for the stern timbers to butt onto?  Quite the puzzle for this model builder to get his head around   

cheers

Pat

Many thanks Martes, I will have a closer look at these later.  I think what I need is more aligned with clipper ships though; although for the main timbers these will help me to start understanding them.

cheers

Pat

Hi all, I am trying to find some good examples of the timbers (fashion pieces, transoms etc) that would form a typical elliptical stern for a vessel c1855.  I have looked through the NMM files (as best I can) for something that might be suited but have lucked out so far.   I have also done a quick look (not yet complete) in the Danish Digital Library (Museum) and found a contemporary ship the Jylland, but she has a different arrangement.  I have plans for the British Gun Despatch Vessels (Arrow Class 1854) and Vigilance Class (1856) but the plans do not show the framing or timbers.

I would appreciate any pointers or suggestions that would allow me to create the framing/timbers used in such a vessel to allow me to draw up the 'probable' stern for HMCSS Victoria (1855).  

cheers

Pat

Nice job on the boat Steven; it looks great.  These boats were very fast as is implied in your last photo.  They must have been a handful with a very small crew.

cheers

Pat

I've never even seen a dado stack (blades) for that sized table Bruce - it will be interesting to see if anyone has.  I typically use my router for these tasks - putting a sacrificial piece of wood behind the piece being cut/routed protects it from chip-out keeping it all nice and clean looking.  I like your solution though, seems to work well.

cheers

Pat

Hi Allan, I have not posted earlier as I thought you were calling for information much earlier than that I hold.  For interest though, it may be useful to note that in HMCSS Victoria (1855), the Specification required:

Wale, Sheerstrake and Topside.-Mahogany, thick 3 inches, to taper forward and aft to 2 inches. 

Also, the imagery shows a 'blended' strake hull (the wales etc do [edit - NOT] appear to stand proud).

cheers

Pat

Placing the gun ports now is a very good idea Baker, will help a lot down the track.  I also filled in much of the dead space between bulkheads, especially in the bow and stern, with my Endeavour build - it helped a lot.

cheers

Pat

Hi Steven, these could be the upper ends of the rising timbers but might also be the tops of cavels or the like - see attached which is from 'The Neophyte Ship Modeller's Jackstay'.  Also, I agree these appear to be 'something' formed in loops as they appear to be draped over the timber tops rather than as a ring attached/fitted to the hull proper.  Whether they are rope though I am not sure, as this is an unusual way to depict rope.

cheers

Pat

No matter what the reason, great to see you back mate.  I hope the recovery goes well.  The revised stand looks good.

cheers

Pat

That is such neat work Chuck; looks great.

cheers

Pat

Wow that is some nice work 👋.  I hope it all works for you, but I am sure testing may highlight a few small improvements or fixes to be made.  She sure will look a 'picture' on the pond/pool.

cheers

Pat

Very nice work on such a delicate skeletal frame Steven.  Not surprising you had to make a few corrections, but it all looks symmetrical and starting to look a little more robust.

cheers

Pat

Agree wholeheartedly.  

cheers

Pat

You're making some great progress there Steven.  The 'skeletal' framework looks very delicate, so I hope the fitting of the clamps, breast kooks etc stiffen this up sufficiently for you when working the planking etc.

cheers

Pat

A great looking hull Baker - the sanding effort was well worth it.

cheers

Pat

Hi Glen, sorry have not commented much as I have been down and out with a flu of late - just getting back onto the horse so to speak.

That is an incredibly well detailed miniature which will make into a very fine diorama; everything appears very nicely to scale.

cheers

Pat

I think this is a case of 'horses for courses'.  I find that the more pre-rigging of the tops and yards you do the easier you make it on yourself later - BUT some of these lines will need to be coiled and kept out of the way.  More importantly, you need to be somewhat selective on which lines you pre-rig.  This will depend on the ship (type of rigging specifically) as some lines will simply get in the way if pre-rigged.  So, as with my "Endeavour" build in particular, I had to go through the rigging well in advance to see what would be beneficial, but still not obstruct, the fitting of the yards and other rigging, by pre-rigging some lines beforehand.

With some blocks I elected to set-up a small length of leader line (small) that I could pull the actual line through when needed rather than pre-rig the entire line.  All that said, if I recall this still only accounted for a small number of lines as clearance was required to do the rat lines etc before rigging some of these lines.  So essentially; your call after some analysis of which of these lines would or not interfere with other rigging processes such as doing the rattlin.

cheers

Pat

Some of the greatest inventions were found by 'accident' Glen    Nice work mate.

cheers

Pat

Good ideas, thanks Eberhard and John - that idea had not even ventured into my fading brain cells.  I'll give that a shot and hopefully find a way to 'mimic' the wood with paint.

cheers

Pat

Thanks Rob, I hope to post a small update early next week; I have been busy redoing the booms.  The though of the gaffs scares me a little as, at this scale, they will be less than two millimetres diameter at the most. 

cheers

Pat

That some very finely detailed work Eberhard.  The quality of your work at this scale is outstanding.

cheers

Pat