Thukydides

Great work Andrew.

I am really enjoying this build log, learning so many things I was not aware of. I don't really have anything to add apart from great job.

Really good work. How did you handle the lofting at the bow? I found I had a lot of trouble with that when I was faring the hull for perseus.

Thanks Glen, the main change is that I have dropped down to about half the size (1/1200 vs 1/700 scale). This certainly brings some modelling challenges, but it allows the ships to be an appropriate size for use of the table top. The age of sail was about maneuvering into position and if the play space is too small then it just becomes a matter or rolling dice for the guns.

These files are a fantastic resource. Very kind of you to make them available for everyone.

1/1200 Vigilant Class Brig - Finished

It has been a while since I updated this log as the vigilant class brig was sitting in limbo waiting on me to get around to varnishing it. Since these pieces are intended for gaming, it is important that a protective layer is applied over the whole model. This also helps to stiffen and strengthen the rigging and the sails as well as protecting them from the natural oils on your fingers. I used satin varnish as I want the colours to pop somewhat and we are at such a small scale that I felt matt varnish would render things too dull.

Once the vanish was on, it was time to apply the water effects. First I used a small flat head paint brush to dab on the water effects. I am using vallejo transparent water for this. The paste appears white when added and then dries clear. The dabbing of the paint brush causes it to sit in peaks and valleys which gives the impression of smaller waves.

Once this has fully dried, I mix some white ink with a little bit of the water effects and go back in with the smallest paintbrush I have to pick out the crests of waves and paint in some of the foam at the bow and in the wake.

And with that the model is finished. You can see it below with a penny for scale.

Yes hope you are feeling better soon.

This is a very cool project.

1 hour ago, dunnock said:

Thanks Daniel that's very helpful. I've been looking for exactly that information but I'm not familiar with the source reference. I'll try single and double 3mm blocks as well. If they don't look too big, it will make things much easier.

The first source is from a national archives documents I have. The Caruana reference is because he transcribes part of TNA WO 55/1745 (1765) in his book and I don't have the original. The raw data from TNA ADM 160/150 (1794), I have transcribed in my research document for Perseus which I released a first draft of parts of it for a while back (see the linked post for the download):

The relevant transcriptions of the primary data can be found on pages 71-73. Essentially, based on the guns carried by a particular class of ship and the stores that accompany them as well as some notes the documents had on the blocks, you can figure out what size of block / rope was used. I just compiled it all into one table to save everyone the effort. Note practice may have varied somewhat from ship to ship and this is mostly based only only 2 sources so a degree of caution with the conclusions is advised. The carronade data is from 1794, so it may not be completely applicable to the earliest use of carronades and things were changing fast at this point so they could also have changed practice in the early 1800s.

I should add that I have some other sources from the period that differ slightly on the size of the breechings and tackles depending on the size of gun so that may indicate there could also have been variance on the block sizes, but these are the only ones I have found which give sizes for the blocks and the only one that gives details for carronades.

Very nice. Those are some nice neat joints.

Looking good David.

32 pdr carronades would indeed have a single double combo for the the tackle with 8 inch (3mm) blocks according to a list I found from 1794. The tackles would be 2.5 inch cir or 0.3mm diameter at your scale. That being said the difference will not be super noticable. You could combo the 3mm double with the 2mm single, then you will get the correct flow of the tackles even if the sizes are not exactly correct.

Edit: Here is the full table for carronades just for completeness:

Table 5.X - Breechings, Tackle and Blocks Per Gun Circa 1765-1794

Source: TNA ADM 160/150; TNA WO 55/1745; Caruana, English Sea Ordnance, 229.

She is quite the model. This will be a very impressive kit. It really is a pleasure to follow along and see how it developes.

Seems like an interesting project. I look forward to seeing what you do with it.

One thing that stands out to me from the plans (though not strictly related to your project) is the use of the iron stock for the kedge. Do you know if this was common practice for the kedge?

Log #31: Framing the Stern Part II

It has been a while since I last posted as much of the work has been incremental small pieces and so I didn't really feel I had a cohesive narrative to share. So while I have titled this post as concerning the stern frames (which do make up a bunch of the work), in general this is more of a collection of odds and ends I have gotten done over the past month.

Stern Framing

The first step in finishing the stern framing was to add on the filler blocks to the outside of the outer frames. These blocks provide the material for me to shape the curve of the lower part of the frames. The we made using basswood so they can easily be sanded down.

Next I needed to add filler pieces for the transom. These are designed to help with the shaping of the flow of the planks up to the stern which I figured would be much easier to do by faring as opposed to trying to perfectly design the pieces. To start with I cut two pieces matching the shape of the bottom of the lower counter from my plans.

These were then glued in place with the upper edge darkened with marker. I do this to help avoid overfaring.

Once the filler blocks were in place I started the process of gluing in the filler pieces for the upper part of the transom. First I had to sand down the various pieces at an angle to make them conform to the shape of the upper frames. I don't have any pictures of this process, but it was mostly just a bank and forth process making sure I was taking off the right amount of material at the correct angle. I then took a perspective plan of the transom perpendicular to the angle of the upper framing. I then held it in place with clips to allow me to adjust the positioning of the filler pieces.

And here you can see all the filler pieces in place. I should note that I did leave a bunch of material on the filler pieces to allow me to sand them while on the frames to conform the shape to the proper curve.

Then I turned my attention to the lower counter. I drafted a template for the shape of the outer curve which I used to mark where I needed to sand to. I used the same template flipped to the right to get the other side correct. You can see from the below picture that there is a minor issue with the position of the filling blocks for the upper transom. However, I am not really concerned with this as it look correct on the top and I left sufficient room between the bottom of the filler pieces and the upper framing of the windows to allow for me to make adjustments. The main point of these pieces is to correctly space the frames and define the shape of the upper quarter gallery. In the end they will not be visible as they will be fully covered.

Then to stabilize the frames for the sanding I added two support pieces joining the final bulkhead to the stern frames.

Bow Gunports

The bow gunports also needed to be worked on. I had previously shown how I had added the bottom and tops of them, but now it was time to cut the bulkhead to make room for the port.

I then carefully sanded the area before using the plans to mark the location of one side of the ports. These could not be done with the others as they need to be perpendicular to hull at that point since they are sided by cant frames. The same jigs as previously shown were used to make sure the port size was consitant.

Waterline

I also took this opportunity to mark the waterline. As previously mentioned the waterline is not actually parallel to the keel so I had previously measured and marked the point at the bow and stern to get the correct angle. Now tipping the model with the little bit of wiggle room available on my build board I used my trusty Lego + bluetack combo to mark the consistent waterline along the bulkheads. I need to do this now as I  will need to know the position of the waterline as I plank. Also it will help with properly positioning the Wales as they touch the waterline around midships.

Current State of Affairs

And here is the current state of affairs after a whole bunch of sanding. I have not fully sanded the inside as I am probably going to wait until the external planking is complete to help with stability. However the rough shape is now correct. Next up I need to frame the quarter gallery doors.

There was quite a bit of variation in length of the cannons and there is likely no way to know what exact lengths were on Pegasus. In fact it is likely there was more than one length of cannon on her. That being said, I would recommend taking a look at Caruana's book on English sea ordinance (it is very expensive but you might be able to borrow it through your local library). He discusses the issue in detail and makes some general observations as to which lengths were used on which ships at which times. I will try to remember to take a look when I get home to see if he has anything to say about sloops in the late 18th century.

The fully framed model books on the swan class ships which you can get from seawatch books likely have a discussion of the cannons. The authors did tonnes of research for those books so I would defer to whatever they have to say on the subject matter.

@thibaultron has made available some very nice models of guns which you can find here:

Finally, I have transcribed one set of dimensions from 1780 which I include part of below just in case you find them helpful. It has dimensions for three different sizes of 6pdrs.

1780 Gunnery Tables by Thomas Walton

Source: RAM G3n/35a; Caruana, English Sea Ordnance, 218-219.

Date: November 1780

Well done, she is a lovely model.

Great job, getting the planking done is an important milestone.

For next time, one way to help with keeping things lined up is to do the planking in bands. Chuck's planking videos describe the process. You are now entering one of my favorite parts of a build. Lots of visible progress once you get past the planking.

4 hours ago, dafi said:

The mainstay wormed the whole length, served around the masthead up to the mouse, the preventer no worming along the length but wormed and served around the masthead. All pictures taken from the Facebook site of Invincible wreck.

Those are some very interesting pictures.

The thing that stands out to me is the 3rd picture where it appears the double block has the same woven material over its strap as the mouse. Also the woven texture appears to continue down further on the rope in picture 2 not just over the mouse. I have never seen this before.

Thanks for sharing them.

1 hour ago, dvm27 said:

With regards to color, what often begins as Manila hemp  starts to deteriorate as soon as it is hit by sunlight, rain and salt water. As well, rope is constantly replaced on on a ship over time so it would not be wrong to show several shades of tan and gray. Standing rigging was usually tarred so darkish brown would be appropriate.

 

If you're wish to be super technical regarding your rope, note the worming of the shrouds in the first picture. Even at 1:48 scale, wormed roped that is then served is smoother that non-served rope. But Archfoto is the only builder I've seen do that and it's way above my pay grade!

 

One question I have never been able to fully resolve which that picture brings up is worming without serving. Was it common for ropes to be wormed and tarred, but not served?

Just chiming in to note that this is all a very interesting discussion.

I think in cases like this where there are probably several different options you could go with, it is always best to go with what you think will look best / are confident you can achieve to a high enough standard.

If you don’t have a preference between the two my gut would be to go with somthing similar to the Berwick plans. It is closer to your time period and is roughly the same size of ship. Things did change a bunch from 1775 to 1810.

6 hours ago, Ronald-V said:

Great post as always Thukydides. Yeah I suspected that with the Marshall painting due to the similarities between them. I suspect also that  the colors look more "vibrant" then they actually were in real life, just to enhance the model on the painting.

Yes you are likely right on the vibrant part. I did choose to paint my alert in that manner (vibrant colours and painted decorations the ship almost certainly didn’t have) purely because I liked how it looked.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that figureheads were often painted. I haven’t come across anything concrete on Sphinx, but the yards would tend to paint them yellow ocre, but then the crews would almost immediately paint them in more “lifelike” colours. This was often a major source of pride for them. So Sphinx as launched may have had a yellow figurehead (as in the painting), but Sphinx in the first year of service may very well have had a more elaborately painted figurehead.

As per ordnance tables I have found (see below) it should be 6.5 in single blocks which would translate to 2.5mm blocks at 1/64 scale. When I did alert I followed Goodwin which I now believe to be incorrect. If I were doing it again I would stick with 2.5mm single blocks.

The breeching would be 4.5 in circumferance which translates to 0.57mm diameter rope at scale, you could round up to 0.6mm. The tackles would be 2 in circumferance rope which translates to 0.25mm diameter rope at scale.

Table 5.X - Breechings, Tackle and Blocks Per Gun Circa 1765-1794

Source: TNA ADM 160/150; TNA WO 55/1745; Caruana, English Sea Ordnance, 229.

Take a look at the many alert build logs on the site. Lots of different takes and things to learn. Always better to lear from other’s mistakes.  Make sure you start a build log .

3 hours ago, clarkt said:

Someone recently asked on this forum:  "Do you want a model of a model or a model of the actual ship?"

This is a very important consideration. Models need to be treated as any other primary source piece of material and judged as such. There is also the question of the art of what you are doing. Very few of us can actually fully accomplish modelling every detail so in some respects every model is an interpretation of the actual vessel. Even though I tend to fall on the research it and get it as accurate as possible side of the modelling continuum I still believe that asthetic considerations are very important part of the decision making process, especially when it is unclear what the ship actually looked like.

7 hours ago, Ronald-V said:

Here are a few reference photos for the bow color scheme. These are contemporary models and the Marshall painting of the Sphinx, and there doesn't really seem to be a set color scheme, but rather, everyone has their own interpretation. Only the Marshall paintings seem to have some consistency, but that doesn't say anything at all  

One thing to note with the Marshall painting is that there is no evidence that the painter ever saw the actual ship and the painting is not even based on an actual model. The painting was done based on a perspective drawing of the ship which was done by drafters based on the plans. The plans themselves have none of the painted decorations on them. Given the aesthetic similarities between the many of the Marshall paintings I suspect that the decorations were simply a product of his imagination and he chose to make the various ship models he did paintings of have a similar aesthetic as they were all meant to be displayed together.

That being said it is possible he saw the actual ship and I suspect he knew better than I do what was typical for a ship of the period….

Yes great job on the first planking.

That deck does look very nice. Good job.