chris watton

1 hour ago, Thunder said:

Looking great.

 

How will the pre-drilled gun port tackle eyebolt positions work on Speedy? It means you will have to plank the inner bulwarks first so that you can drill through from the outside to maintain the positions. This means cutting the bulkhead tabs off first before completing the second layer of outer planking.

 

Great idea if can get to work as I hate marking and drilling them from the inside and there is always at least one where the drill bit goes all the way through the outer planking.

Thank you.

I must stress that this is a pre-prototype (the gun port pattern is missing its hawse holes still - I use these to try ideas and see if any stick), and when drawing the details onto the pattern in CAD, I added the eyebolt holes in case I find a way to make these holes work. For example, I figured the second planking could go as high as the lower edges of the gun ports, then remove the bulkhead tabs above deck level, plank the inside, and then drill the holes from the outside in, and then finish off the outer planking.

I will try this, and if it doesn't work, I will design some templates instead. It should work, though. As I mentioned, I do not much like gun port patterns so much, and much prefer the new method with longitudinal and vertical frames slotting together to make the port timbers - but the bulkhead tabs would have to be 2mm thick max to do this, and I suspect many builders would be frustrated with the fragility, and many tabs broken whilst planking.

I do now include a nice slot in the bows to take the planking up to the planking lines as per the original plans, I tried this with Alert and worked really well, so I shall use that for all future kits.

Oh, forgot to mention, I am having a 64th scale sculpture of Lord Cochrane made for Speedy (digital so I can change the scale if I want), what do you guys think about this, like having say, Pellew for Indefatigable and Nelson for Bristol (as he did serve on it). Not just generic sailor figures, but ones sculpted from actual paintings of the men, with the correct heights (Nelson was 5 foot 4 and Cochrane was over 6 feet tall)? I could do them in 72nd, 64th and 48th scale.

ETA - Also forgot to say, Speedy will have a copper bottom..

Hello,

It has been a while but I promise I have been busy. It has not been  easy developing new kits whilst holding down a full time job, but I am enjoying the experience and hope that one day, I can quit the day job and concentrate solely on the Vanguard Models range.

OK, first to be released, which I am hoping will be in two or three weeks, is the Armed Cutter Alert. I am just waiting for everything to be delivered, so I can put the kits together in the boxes. I should have a final price soon, once I receive my final invoice for the laser cutting and photo etched parts.

I have attached a pic of the box art that I did for Alert. The manual is being printed right now (56 A3 colour pages).

I did start the designs for HMS Bristol, as this was to be my next kit. However, whilst reading one of my books during tea breaks at work, I learnt of the small 14 gun brig Speedy (1782), and her exploits when commanded by Lord Cochrane. I ordered the plans and decided to do this next. It seemed to make more sense, as I will be able to release this by the end of Summer (I hope). Because of the very fine lines, I have used a lot more bulkheads than is usual for this size of kit (15 bulkheads).

After this, I will hopefully have some money come in instead of all going out, and will concentrate of Bristol, followed most probably with a heavy frigate.

I will add a couple of pics of the Speedy prototype hull in a following update. I had the parts laser cut locally, as these are 'sacrificial' parts and used only to check fit and make sure the gun port pattern fits exactly as it should. I did intend to have the gun ports framed, as the Victory model, but realised the frames would have to be way too thin to achieve scale thickness of the bulwarks, once the inner and outer planking strips were factored in.

This is the new website (still work in progress until I finalise costs of Alert:

https://vanguardmodels.com/

And a big thank you to Steve Urwin, who has done all of that for me, which I appreciate very much.

Also a big thank you to Jim Hatch, who has helped with contacts for boxes and resin casting suppliers. Without MSW, I would not have even started down this path, so thank you!

Chris

I shall be off the forums for a while, as I will have no real news until I have finished what I am now doing, so need to concentrate on that.

Once I do have more news, I shall start a new thread.

Cheers,

Chris

Just to add, a big genuine thank you to all of you guys who have contributed, I can honestly say that if it wasn't for the input from many on this forum, I would not have even thought about starting to design new stuff again, so your input and help you have given me is and has been deeply appreciated.

9 hours ago, paulsutcliffe said:

How about further down the line one of the earlier victories, ie 1744 100 gun four Decker, nobodies made that one, flat stern with balconies and lots of red paint,  awesome

Regards

Paul

 

I do not like the earlier Victory as like Wasa, it was a very flawed design, too top heavy. I have obtained a full set of plans for a mid 18th Century First Rate, but it's not Victory (although I do have the as built plans for that too, from my earlier designs of Amati's 64th scale Victory)

The 1744 Victory wasn't a 4-decker, it just had four tiers of stern and side lights.

5 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

I am brilliant.  

OK......

9 hours ago, vossiewulf said:

Is that the logo for you new company Chris in your profile image? If so can we get a better view?

I would love to use octagonal dowel for the yards (so you just have to taper both ends and that's it), but never found any. If things ever take off, I may just try and get some produced by a supplier. Anything to make it easier for me too is good!

One more thing, the only thing that I have never liked about the masts is that really, you do need some sort of lathe to turn the topmasts and topgallant masts (You can easily use a plane and sanding block and file for most yards and lower masts).

At Amati, we did try and get these parts pre made, but they always came back wrong - the samples were fine, but when we received the bulk of the masts and yards, they could not be used, they were that bad. It is a shame, as when building the hull (the more complex of the two stages of hull and masts and rig), my main tool is just my trusty Stanley Knife, but for the masts, I need a lathe! Although when I first started, I did used to put a full size electric drill in a bench vice and turn the wood using that - although that is clearly something I could not recommend!

1 hour ago, Thunder said:

Definitely do not go back to that idea. It will just mean lots of half finished models and despondent people leaving the hobby. We left that behind long ago and need to encourage people back. 

Definitely not! If anything, I have always tried to make the kits easier (and more fun) to build. For me, it is not a willy waving contest about who is the most skilled at making something from a block a wood - there are plenty of plans and a vast selection of nice woods for people who are into that already.

1 hour ago, Thunder said:

Chris,

 

I wouldn't go to the bother of causing extra work by having two versions for that and two versions of box artwork etc. Just provide an inner and out ring to be cut out on your false deck and add the alteration and flags. The dowel for the topgallant masts could be used for the flag staffs. I recently finished my Royal Caroline with stub masts. They are not glued in so if I want to return to her and complete the rig they just need pulling out. The bowsprit just needs modifying and gammoning is in place.

 

 

Very nice model, definitely one of Panart's best, and you have certainly done the kit justice.

When I worked for Amati, we toyed with the idea of splitting the kits up to try and cut down the cost to the modeller. The problem was that most of the cost is in the hull and fittings. The masts, yards and rigging make up a much smaller cost to the overall kit.

Well, I think I have now had the whole spectrum of suggestions, from CNC'ing all carvings from exotic woods to just supplying a load of wood and a set of drawings and leaving the modeller to it! Both would be financially disastrous, I have no doubt (in the West, at least).

As long as I (and others like me) can keep the people in the middle of the spectrum relatively happy, I'll be happy.

49 minutes ago, Bob Cleek said:

I wasn't talking about large, complex models, but rather relatively simple, but exquisite, models. For example, good wood provided in sheets, from which the builder cuts from patterns, allows a lower price than a kit with every part lazer-cut.

This so much reminds me of buying my very first wooden kit, a Billings Bounty - this had exactly as you suggest (except for quality wood). Hell, it even had a large block of obechi, this was the ship's boat that you had to carve out yourself! I would like to think we have 'evolved' the kits a little more since then.

16 minutes ago, Thunder said:

Those bottom photographs are the paintings of the model commissioned for the king of the time and this model would be top of the list for me. I am wondering if would be ready for my big 50 birthday so I can ask the good lady now (18 months time).

I am hoping it will be this year!

33 minutes ago, Thunder said:

Bellona-yes would be interested but due to size would have to build as a hull only kit. Would want her as built rather than later in career.

Victory - yes interested but only of the as built version.

50 gun Portland class - definitely and now I know the date of vessel proposed would be a good compliment to Mordaunt instead of wanting to sell her. I would like as in the painting of the model of Portland i.e. decorative stern gallery and frieze / ginger bread work. 

 

I have been in the process of buying a new side board for the lounge. The wife has not worked out yet that the size I have asked for is to accommodate a very large model on top. She will be pleased!! 

I have to admit, I think the larger models like that look just as good without the masts, yards and rig. I wonder if it would be worth doing two versions, with the one just hull only but with special mast holes for the large flag poles, and include those and the flags. I think that would look really nice.

The copies of the original NMM plans have all the decoration included, which is what attracted me to this ship, so I am hoping it will look more or less like those two bottom photographs when finished, but with a white hull below waterline, and either Tanganyika or Pear wood for the second planking - that will compliment the blues and reds perfectly.

23 minutes ago, Morgan said:

That will be a real departure from what’s on the market. Makes sense to take a ‘class’ approach as per your Vanguard / Elephant / Bellaphron if you produce other ships of the class later, but offered as separate kits, keeps the development costs down after the initial model, but increases the range and appeal.

I know that in Rif Winfield's book, Leopard is shown as she was in her later career, with gangways around the waist, Bristol has an open waist, so I thought I would just do one (nice looking) pinnace for the ships boat, resting on the spare spars. If I do Leopard at a later date, because that has boat beams, I would do the full compliment of boats. I figure one large decorative pinnace sitting along the waist for Bristol will suit the overall aesthetics of the finished model, as it does for Bellona.

2 minutes ago, Morgan said:

1767 class? If so most interesting, the Leopard and Leander are 2 well known of the 1767 class, the Leander being one of the last 50 gun ships to stand in the line of battle at the Nile, and the Leopard of the fictional Aubrey and the actual Chesapeake affair.

Yes, 1767 class, the second of that class, Bristol. It should be a very nice looking model, and the best part for is the fact that I now get to keep the finished prototype models for myself!

I guess I could do another in the future for Leopard, as that is sufficiently different to warrant it, if shown in its later builds.

2 hours ago, flyer said:

Hi Chris

 

A Bellona kit in Chris Watton quality would be great - however...

 

Space for the finished model would be a big problem for many of us. My Bellerophon will be use a lot of it and she is 10% smaller (1/72) and I still don't know yet where to berth her. I think the price will not be the biggest problem. If you want spend 3 to 6 years to build a big, great model you could save a year longer for the kit.

 

But how about a smaller frigate for your next kit? The only frigate kit available is Diana and nobody knows if Surprise will ever be launched. For example the graceful Lowestoffe (32) of 1761 had an interesting career, is well documented - including a contemporary model -, was a Slade design and would be rather unique in the range of available kits.

 

Cheers

 

Peter

 

I do understand the problem of space, but to be honest, there are already countless smaller kits on the market to choose from. I decided from the off to try and stick to 64th scale, as I feel this is the best for such models. I do have a couple of smaller vessels in the pipeline (Have already got all of the plans for the first 6 kits) - but I would like to do another heavy frigate, as the last one I did was the first I ever did. That was two decades ago.

I did do a 72nd scale Surprise for Amati a few years' ago, but nothing ever came of it, don't know why.

27 minutes ago, Morgan said:

But before Bellona you have teased a 50 gun ship .... can you say which one or do we start the ‘guess the next kit game’? 😉

 

Gary

Portland Class 50 gun two decker is the next kit after Alert

I am quite sure that there are no other kits currently on the market for such a vessel. (HMS Bristol)

7 hours ago, vossiewulf said:

Chris I understand, but one of the (thankfully few) disappointing things concerning the ship modeling hobby is the lack of variety - go to the top 10 kit manufacturer web sites and you find the same ships over and over again as if manufacturers have talked themselves into a fear of doing anything else. It leaves huge numbers of important and interesting ships only available to scratchbuilders.

 

Captain was a suggestion but I won't begin to say I really know which ships are best for you to do, the only point I'm making is that you're a creative designer and I at least would like to see that creativity expressed in interesting ships that don't yet have a model.

 

I already have Vanguard in the closet, so I'm a hard sell for a RN 74 anyway. The one that would definitely get me to jump for another 74 is as I mentioned once, the USS Independence I'm not aware of any kits of the few US SOLs, and despite the lack of battle honors I still think it would sell well, everyone has seen 600 RN and French and Spanish SOLs.

 

Talk to the Naval Academy and get them to judge a competition of Independence builds two years after release with the winner being displayed in the Rogers collection for a year and you won't be able to keep them on the shelves. 

 

Then again as noted it's always easy to imagine such things working flawlessly when you're not buying thousands of dollars worth of materials yourself.

 

I know - but I have to make sure that what I choose, for the first few kits at least, have quite broad appeal. This will allow me to then do more developments, one of which is a 70 gun Restoration warship (cannot do that yet as it would take all of my investment money). I would also love to to do a US subject at some point, and if things work out, I most certainly will - but this is very early days, and I am saying all this assuming I sell what I have planned already.

I will not be doing another Victory though, so that's a plus!

Cheers Ron.

I am quite sure that my Bellona will not look like that. (although for such a small scale, it is a very nice kit)

I guess it doesn't matter what I do, there will always be someone who would prefer something else! lol

But I do like Bellona, it is a very good looking model, and I did say that I want to design stuff that I would like to build..

6 hours ago, vossiewulf said:

I would rather see ships that don't already have existing kits. There are many other RN 74s that played important roles in various battles like Captain, last I checked that was the ship Nelson commanded when he captured two larger ships at St. Vincent.

Yes, but the problem is that most British 74's all look the same, many with the same dimensions even. Take Bellona, although a different class, has (virtually) the same configuration as the Vanguard, Elephant, Captain and countless others. The differences being mostly superficial.

What sets Bellona off from the others is her decoration, both stern and sides (although in reality painted frieze on the sides). Plus I prefer the colour scheme, with varnished sides rather than painted fully. I really liked my first designs for Bellona, and would love to do it again from scratch (as original designs were flawed and were ironed out with the Victory prototype)

I know Corel do a Bellona, but this is in a very small scale, isn't it?

9 hours ago, MESSIS said:

@chris watton though to be exact, L'Hermione was disgned by Henri Chevillard. With the same drawings were  builted in Rochefort four frigates in total (12 lb. Frigates-class Concord).  The frigates La Concorde,Le Fee, La Couragese and ofcourse L'Hermione.

 

The replica of Hermione was builted using among other documents, mainly according to the drawings of La Concord. These drawings are preserved in Greenwich Museum since 1783, when the British Royal Navy captured La Concord and established new drawings of the ship..

.

The one I was asked to develop was a model of the modern full size replica of Hermione, that is the one I am talking about. I was surprised to find that even the smallest detail in decoration was the same as seen in J. Boudroit plans - like the patterns on the quarterdeck rails, overlooking the waist.

Oh, what would you guys think of a 64th scale model of Bellona, designed in the same style as Victory with all deck detail - although it would not be cheap?

45 minutes ago, paulsutcliffe said:

Chris, looks like you have one of your next kits ready to go then !! 😀😀

If only - was designed and developed for another company (72nd scale - I think, may have been 64th, cannot remember)

16 hours ago, Thunder said:

Chris, does this mean I need to sell my Mordaunt kit to make way for your next model?

Well, I do have to design and build it first, I will update this thread with progress pics as I go along.

ETA - I always like the Mordaunt kit (and their Royal William).