Henry Grace a Dieu (Great Harry) by Louie da fly - FINISHED - Scale 1:200 - Repaired after over 50 yrs of neglect

[BANYAN]

That's one heck of a main course - the size is almost the same as that of the hull (if not larger).   It took seeing the overall picture to realise it.  Nice work Steven and especially on your recovery efforts (new and old).

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

Yes, these main courses were enormous, at least on carrarcks, and the main mast was equally enormous - had to be to deal with the forces involved. Here's an example from a Venetian portoloan of 1482 by Grazioso Benincasa.

 

Steven

[Louie da fly]

And more . . .

 

Bonaventure stay being replaced. The collar on the mizzen mast under way. Note the small loop to take the lower section of the stay.

The stay with its deadeyes glued to the bonaventure mast just below the top, hanging free till the glue dries - I'll do the same as I did with the mizzen stay..

And the mainbrace and main sheet loosely in place.

   

 

Steven
 

 

 

[druxey]

The mast beyond the mast beyond the mast.... Looks like you've almost arrived, Steven!

[Louie da fly]

Bonaventure stay. I did the same thing with this (wet and glued the lanyards) as I did with the mizzen stay. Worked well. I wish I'd thought of this with the lanyards for all the shrouds - they would have been a lot tidier. Unfortunately this isn't a lesson I can use in future builds. If I do another ship with deadeyes on shrouds it will be at a bigger scale and I don't think I'll need to use this technique.

 

Top end and bottom end of stay. Held taut while the glue dried using weights, pegs etc. A bit fiddly, but worked ok.

 

  

And trimmed to length top and bottom.

 

And for those who are interested, here's the whole procedure I use in making a block. No sheave of course - far too small. The timber is pear wood, the glue is PVA (white glue).

 

  

  

  

 

[mtaylor]

My eyes crossed and my brain melted down at the size of the blocks.  

[Louie da fly]

Maybe I should have included that giant match stick in the photos . . .

Edited April 19, 2023 by Louie da fly

[Louie da fly]

Mizzen lateen course [is that the right name?] rigged. Here's the sheet, starting from ringbolts at the taffrail, through a couple of blocks, and belayed off to one side.

  

And here is the lateen topsail placed in position and the parrel (a simple loop of cotton) glued in place. 

   

Added a block for the topsail lift.

Anderson proposed that the lateen topsail might be sheeted to the yard of the lower lateen, but there's not room for that in the model's configuration, so I've gone with Landström's version - of a spar sticking out aft from the mizzen top. Even then I've done it a bit differently, because I can't see how Landström's version would have any rigidity.

   

And here is the mizzen topsail in place and fully rigged, with sheet and a simple lift. No tacks; Anderson thought they probably weren't needed. And the lateen topgallant in place but not yet rigged. But you can see the block for the lift at the very top of the mast.

Landström was of the opinion that the upper lateen were only for show anyway, and would not have been used at sea. But they do look cool.

 

While working on the mizzen sails, I was also getting the lower lateen ready for the bonaventure. Loose threads for the martnets and buntlines.

Double sheaved block for the martnet tackle.

  

Martnets. Getting better at these.

  

Buntline

And all installed, tied off  and trimmed to length. This time I've kept the central rope on the buntline loose for the time being - I found it was too tight on the mizzen lateen and interfered with the 'billow' of the sail. I'm changing that on the mizzen, too, so it will have a nice smooth curve at the bottom.

And that's as far as I've got today.

 

Steven

 

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Louie da fly

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Incredible restoration!  Such a great model.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Steven,   I've been looking into the history of the HGaD (my acronym, to avoid confusing it with the Great Henry built by his father Henry the 7th in 1488 or the earlier Henry Grace), and the sources available have high concurrence that the re-build in 1536 lowered the stern castle (and possibly the fore castle) enough to lessen her tendency to heel (a bit top heavy?), thus reducing her tonnage burthen to around 1,000 ... AND added top gallants.  So perhaps her former tonnage was something like 1,200.

 

  Now Henry the 8th may have built the HGaD (launched 1514, finished 1515) to counter the Scottish Great Michael, who's stats vary considerably depending on which source one looks at, and many estimate the tonnage at around 1,000, possibly more - a 'Carrack on steroids' and the largest built at the time.  With an ego like Henry's (perhaps a megalomaniac), he had to outdo the Scots.

 

  The painting of the embarkation of Henry the 8th (for the Field of Cloth of Gold, an event that occurred in 1520 - although the painting had to have been done after the fact) is truly remarkable and in quality is comparable to the painting of the 1521 voyage of the marriage party depicting similar ships.  Both commemorative paintings most likely were painted within a couple years of the events portrayed, given the importance of the events and the PR value of painting them.  Neither work shows any top gallant sails, nor do any other depictions I've seen dated before or no later than the 1520s.

 

  So if one were to attempt a model of the tipsy HGaD "pre 1536", might that have (apart from an extra deck on the castles) only yards for main sails and top sails (plus lateens on the 2 masts astern)?  I note that in both of the above-mentioned paintings, there are shields around the tops of the castles.  This would be a practical feature to protect archers or hand gunners on the top decks from anti-personnel fire of various types from opposing ships.

 

  Any thoughts on this?      Johnny

Edited April 24, 2023 by Snug Harbor Johnny

[Louie da fly]

Johnny, I think the pre 1536 GH (my abbreviation) would have been rigged as you suggest, and perhaps the post-1536 would have been similarly rigged, though it's possible she had topgallants as shown on the Anthony Roll. You're probably right about the forecastle and aftercastle being reduced in height in the rebuild. Yes, I've read that GH was built as a reply to the Great Michael (which never really got used, and ended up getting sold to France IIRC. I've read that GH was 1500 tons burthen, (while the Mary Rose was 1000) but I don't know what date that relates to.

 

I certainly don't think she'd have had lateen topsails or topgallants in everyday use (though the Embarkation shows topsails on both mizzen and bonaventure, it also shows them as square rigged!) I've been told that the Embarkation was probably painted about 1545, despite showing an event of 1520.

 

Can you refer me to the painting of the marriage party of 1521? I don't know this one.

I've taken most of my interpretation from Landström's reconstruction, which based on both the Embarkation and the Anthony Roll depiction, also of 1545.

I included the cloth-of-gold sails because - well, they're way cool.

 

Now, here are the latest additions.

 

Parrel truck for the bonaventure lateen  "course"

Mizzen topgallant  with sheet, lift etc.

"Outriggers" for the bonaventure lateen sail and topsail.

More work on the bonaventure parrel truck. A bit fiddly, but I got there eventually. Note also the matchstick being used to form the "belly" of the mizzen lateen - I'd had the buntlines too tight and the sail got a kink at the lower edge. So I dampened it and gradually smoothed out the curve.

 

You might also notice that Henry now only has two courtiers with him - one of them got dislocated while I was trying to install some of the rigging. I've left him off until there's no more rigging to be done and then I'll put him back in place. Same thing happened to one of the grapnels at the ends of the mainyard. It'll go back when the model is complete enough so I don;t accidentally break it off again.

The mizzen topgallant in place and rigged. And the match further along, forming the belly at the foot of the lateen.

And jumping ahead, here's the ship with all the lateen sails on it and rigged. Only the spritsail to go!

 

Steven

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Louie da fly

[druxey]

Oh, my! Your younger self would be amazed to see the model as she is now! And there's nothing worse than a dislocated courtier. Send him to the ER!

 

Seriously, fine progress, Steven.

[Ferrus Manus]

Where's the aft lateen outrigger? you'll need it soon. I assume you're afraid to knock it off accidentally. The lateen outrigger on my Man O' War broke in 3 places, i can't tell you how many times. 

[Louie da fly]

Thanks everyone for the likes and comments.

 

Druxey, thanks. I've also changed the colour of his jacket, as they were all looking a bit same-ish.

 

Ferrus Manus - exactly. The outrigger is made, but won't be put in place until right near the end -too much chance of breaking it.

 

Steven

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Ahoy Steven,  sorry for the delay in reply - as I often miss activity.  The 'marriage' painting I referred to might be in your collection of images somewhere.  I'm pasting it below:

 

 

  Cool picture, eh?  Brave crewmen are walking the yards (but seem to have one hand on a line), and there is great detail in certain aspects of the rigging and how the sails actually looked under a breeze.  I note on the large ships in the foreground that they have three decks on both castles, with the top deck on each not going the full length of the one underneath.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Snug Harbor Johnny

[Ferrus Manus]

On 4/24/2023 at 8:47 AM, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  Steven,   I've been looking into the history of the HGaD (my acronym, to avoid confusing it with the Great Henry built by his father Henry the 7th in 1488 or the earlier Henry Grace)

Don't forget the Grace Dieu of 1418

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[Louie da fly]

9 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

The 'marriage' painting I referred to might be in your collection of images somewhere.  I'm pasting it below:

Oh, yes. I'm very familiar with that one - just never heard it called by that name. Yes, it's wonderful - and it's been pointed out that all the 'round ships' in the pic are smaller versions of the main one. I keep going back to it for information because it's so full of detail and interest. I had at one time thought of building a model of her, but there's too many other ships I also want to build.

 

3 hours ago, Ferrus Manus said:

Don't forget the Grace Dieu of 1414

Yes, Henry V's "super-ship". Some of her still exists below the mud in the river Hamble, along with another they think is the Holigost.

 

Steven

[Ferrus Manus]

I saw the Time Team episode. I am absolutely OBSESSED with carracks, especially the older ones. The Grace Dieu actually had triple-clinker planking, and was built to fight the Genoese carracks. 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[Louie da fly]

On 5/2/2023 at 10:34 AM, Ferrus Manus said:

I am absolutely OBSESSED with carracks,

Me too.  I've seen the Time Team episode, and somewhere on the internet there is a 3D diagram of her lines (those that survive) - I just tried to find it again, without success, but ther's something on her, anyway - https://www.academia.edu/3113962/HIGH_RESOLUTION_ACOUSTIC_IMAGERY_FROM_A_SHALLOW_ARCHAEOLOGICAL_SITE_THE_GRACE_DIEU_A_CASE_STUDY . There's a fascinating blog about the River Hamble wrecks at https://ianfrielhistorian.wordpress.com/tag/grace-dieu/ - well worth a read! Oh, and he's published a book about Henry V's navy - see https://www.amazon.com.au/Henry-Vs-Navy-Agincourt-1413-1422-ebook/dp/B01491XDEU.

 

There is a contemporary account by a Venetian(?) mariner who visited her when she was new. He claimed the mast was 200 feet tall. I don't believe him - more likely that's shorthand for "Very tall", and I think they get the height of the forecastle (which I also find hard to believe) from the same source.

 

But if you like early carracks, you'll probably like this one. It's from a pair of pew -ends from St Nicholas' church in Kings Lynn, England (now in the Victoria and Albert Museum, London). It dates to 1419, contemporary with Grace Dieu. Note the rectangular forecastle!

 

 

Steven

Edited May 3, 2023 by Louie da fly
Removed the word "unfortunately" which I missed in a previous edit.

[Ferrus Manus]

She was the "fairest vessel that ever man saw". 

[Ferrus Manus]

They said the Grace Dieu was well in excess of a hundred feet in length, closer to 200. The mast measurement is likely not exaggerated by more than 50 feet. She was absolutely gargantuan, and nothing bigger would be built until the 18th century. She was an unbelievable feat in terms of scale. However, when she was complete, there was no war left to fight. England controlled France, and the Genoese carracks were no longer a threat. So, the vessel that likely hundreds of thousands of man-hours and whole forests of timber went into simply laid in the mud of the Hamble, never to see the glory for which she was meant. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[Ferrus Manus]

Why do you think your viewing of the Time Team episode is unfortunate? They discovered a lot and gave much insight into the ships of the day. It is one of the only pieces of media about the Grace Dieu, and where i learned of the ship.

 

The trapezoidal forecastle is likely a holdover from the earlier English cogs, just like the (albeit extremely overbuilt) clinker planking. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[Louie da fly]

Oops. I didn't realise I'd left the word "unfortunately" in there when I did a previous edit. It's removed now.

 

1 hour ago, Ferrus Manus said:

The trapezoidal forecastle is likely a holdover from the earlier English cogs, just like the (albeit extremely overbuilt) clinker planking. 

Yes, that's my opinion too. I believe the triangular forecastle developed as carracks grew bigger. All that weight cantilevered over the bow wouldn't have been good - for stability and for structural integrity - so they turned the rectangle into a triangle.

 

The picture you posted above says 30+ metres (= approx 100 feet). Can you let me know know where the 200 feet figure for overall length comes from? I doubt very much that the mast was twice as high as the length of the ship, particularly in the days of no topmasts. I'm still of the opinion that the guy just meant "very high". He's unlikely to have measured it. And I think the same applies to the height of the forecastle - reconstructions that try to fit such a high forecastle onto a ship the size of the Grace Dieu just look weird and (more to the point, considering we're talking about carracks which do look weird to the modern eye) out of proportion for a carrack - though I suppose it's possible that maybe she was experimental, and she really did have an oversize forecastle to be higher than the Genoese carracks, I just think the guy didn't expect his figures to be taken too seriously. Exaggeration for effect was pretty common at the time - numbers of people in a battle, sizes of things, you name it.

  

Unfortunately I can't find the original eyewitness report about her size. It would help to have that quote and see what he actually said. [Edit - his name was Albizzi, and he was a "Florentine captain of galleys".]

 

Steven

Edited May 3, 2023 by Louie da fly

[Ferrus Manus]

The image i posted was of the smaller, but still massive, Holy Ghost.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[Louie da fly]

The spritsail - the last sail to be added. The spritsail is supported by a (fake) parrel truck and held in place with a halyard/ties through blocks at the end of the bowsprit and on the yard.

The main sheets finally tied off and fixed in place.

 

And the tacks

And the foresail sheets

And tacks

Still working on getting those catenary curves in various ropes (not all that easy). I may have to just accept that some of them won't fall right. Ditto the sails at the clews - the tacks probably affect them differently in the real world, but that's all part of the learning curve, I'm afraid. 

 

And here's a new courtier being carved to go with the King (he needs friends around him, right?). Sorry about the definition - it's the best I could get with my phone.

  

And here he is in place, with two others re-positioned (the guy in the yellow who I accidentally knocked off the deck while I was doing the rigging, and the one in red, who had to be moved because the mizzen sheet was running across his nose).

And here's a (not terribly good) photo of the ship without most of those pegs hanging off it.

 

Steven

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Louie da fly

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  'Love the detailed pictures that will help me with my 'somewhat larger' project at 1:78 ...   You've done a SUPER job, and I marvel at the tiny figures you carved.  I think I'll be able to get some pre-made figures at 1:72 scale that will fit in.

[Louie da fly]

29 minutes ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

I think I'll be able to get some pre-made figures at 1:72 scale that will fit in.

Linear-B make 1:72 Tudor figures - see https://www.1-72depot.com/1-72-scale-plastic-model-kits/figures/strelets-linear-b-012-age-of-tudors/  - several aof the poses aren't suitable for your ship, but quite a few are.

 

Also Camisado has Tudor arquebusiers (musketeers) - most not suitable unless your ship is in battle, but a couple in civvies. http://camisado1500s.blogspot.com/2014/04/tudor-arquebusiers.html

 

Steven

Edited May 4, 2023 by Louie da fly

[Baker]

Great work Steven,

Hats off to so much detail on this small scale 👍

[davyboy]

Steven,Great Harry looks absolutely tip-top. You must have the patience of a saint to have accomplished this. Respect 

 

Dave 

[Glen McGuire]

Beautiful work, Steven!  Particularly on the tiny carvings.  Wow.