New and need help to identify a mystery model? Read here first!

[ccoyle]

Hi!

 

On a fairly regular basis, we here at MSW receive requests from new members for help with identifying a ship model, such as something like one of these:

 

 

The request usually looks something like this:

 

Quote

Hi. I don't know anything about ship models, but I got this model from a(n) auction/relative/yard sale, and I'm wondering if anyone here knows anything about it or its value. I'm thinking about restoring/reselling it.

 

 

Now, we are happy to help you with this request, but since we get asked so often, I thought it would be good to finally put some info on mystery models in one topic thread so that you can maybe find your answer before you post. Here are some basic things you should know:

 

1. Many, many models have been built over the years for the sole purpose of serving as decor or memorabilia. This would be a model purchased at, say, Sea World or Home Goods. These models are usually built to low standards in parts of the world where labor is relatively cheap. Once upon a time, southern Europe was a hot-spot for their manufacture. Nowadays most such models are coming out of Southeast Asia. These models usually have little, if any, historical or resale value. If you shelled out for one at an auction, you are probably stuck with it. Unfortunately, the vast majority of models we get asked about fall into this category.

 

2. A similar category of models could be classified as folk art. These are, as the name implies, locally built models that are an artistic representation of a ship rather than a scale model. Like the decor models, these also usually have little value other than sentimental value.

 

3. Then there are models that are actual attempts at scale model building, either scratch built or from a kit. Maybe your dad or grandpa built one. The value of these varies widely depending on the subject and the quality of the build, but the number of builders whose work is actually worth a large chunk of change is very, very small. The number of prospective buyers for such models is even smaller.

 

4. It is an extremely rare model that will turn out to have real value, either due to its artistic merit (built by someone who's a recognized master modeler) or historical value (e.g. a genuine prisoner-of-war bone model). Trust me, there are builders who are good (you would probably ooh and aah over their work), and then there are the builders whom those 'good' modelers look up to - the Stradivaris of our art, if you will. Those builders are few and far between, and grandpa probably wasn't one of them.

 

5. No matter what kind of model you have, the only people who can give you a true estimation of its worth (meaning, what a real person might actually pay) are those who make their living by doing such things, i.e. museum curators or owners of maritime art galleries. What you get from MSW should only be considered an informed opinion. If you do decide to go to a gallery, just let me prepare you well in advance for the shock you will likely experience upon hearing the appraised value of your model. In our hobby, 'valuable' and 'finely crafted' are not necessarily synonymous.

 

Nine times out of ten, mystery models shown at MSW are, sad to say, essentially worthless in terms of monetary value. Some of those models, to be sure, still have sentimental value for their owners, and that is not to be taken lightly. If you have a model like that, then do what you can to preserve it. If, on the other hand, you were hoping you found an overlooked treasure at a boot sale, well, you most likely didn't. Sorry.

 

Cheers!

[druxey]

Thanks for telling like it unfortunately is, Chris.

 

To add to your posting, sometimes the model is a wreck but of sentimental value. Folk have no idea how much it will cost for a professional restoration. That is their second shock. I can't count the number of times I've provided an estimate, never to hear back from the correspondent while coughing on the dust raised by their rapid departure!

[mtaylor]

Kudos, Chris for telling it like it is and to Druxey also.  

 

I think, in all the years of MSW (both 1.0 and 2.0 and even DDM) that there's only been one that has ended up being a historic and potentially valuable model.  OTOH, we've had a few who have set out to restore granddad's model and have done well with guidance and help.  

[jbshan]

If you're collecting comments, there are indeed valuable models resembling the usual yard sale/family heirloom.  These are usually hundreds of years old and are already in museums, so yours is probably not one of them.

[ccoyle]

Okay, let's delve a little further into this subject. Let's examine a few Mystery Models and discuss what makes them something less than what they seem to be.

 

Take a look at Mystery Model #1.

This one doesn't need too much explanation. It is obviously a curio -- something a kid would buy at the gift shop at Mystic Seaport. When the child outgrows it, it might end up in a yard sale. But more likely, though, it will just get discarded.

 

But not all cheap models are so overtly cheesy. How about Mystery Model #2?

This one looks nice -- from a distance. Once you get up close, you can see that the fittings are not to scale and the workmanship is not great. This is clearly a decor piece. If you have a nautical theme in your office, and you don't want to shell out big bucks for a scale model, you might get something like this at the local home decorating store. You probably won't have much success at selling it to someone else.

 

Mystery Model #3 is something we see a lot of around here.

It looks old. It looks antique. It must therefore be valuable, right? Wrong. This is a classic example of an older style of decor model, probably made in Spain. Columbus' ships were especially popular subjects. Some might have a plaque bearing the name "Fregatta" (fregatta is Spanish for 'frigate'). Unfortunately, unlike perhaps a matched pair of Holland & Holland shotguns, these models don't appreciate in value with age. They just get old, like shag carpet and avocado green appliances.

 

Now, to mix things up a bit, let's look at a model that represents a ship still in existence. First we have the model:

 

And now we have the real deal, the bark Star of India, the crown jewel of the San Diego Maritime Museum.

 

 

At first glance, the model does kind of look like the real ship. But once again, the devil is in the details. Look closely at the real ship. Now look at the model. Notice the difference in the cut of the sails and the way the sails are set on their yards. Notice how fine the rigging looks on the real ship and how chunky it looks on the model. Notice how the model doesn't even have the proper rig (it has square sails on the mizzen mast, the mast at the rear of the ship; the real Star does not). If you could see the model up close, you would see that the lack of fidelity to the original extends to the deck fittings as well. In short, the model is only a crude likeness of the real thing.

 

Now, here's the kicker. At the time of this writing, the Star of India model was available to purchase on the internet for (wait for it) -- $999.99. I kid you not! And, sadly, it's kind of like a new car in the sense that once you drive it off the lot, its value plummets. "But wait," you might say, "I bought this model for $999.99, so it must be worth at least $999.99, right?" Um -- no. In the first place, no one is going to pay $999.99 for your now-second-hand model when there are tons of brand-new ones available on the Internet. Second, I, at least, am certainly not going to pay that much for it, because I know where I can get a brand new model just like it for less than 1/10th of what you paid for yours. Ouch!

 

In the next installment, I'll cue you in on what model ship buyers really want in a model and how much they might be willing to pay for it. Until then!

[ccoyle]

In this next installment of How to Spot a Cheap Model, I'll show you the difference between a mass-produced model and an actual scale model built by a master modeler. Once you know what to look for, the cheap stuff is not hard to identify (and by 'cheap' I mean poorly made, not inexpensive). We're going to examine the stern of each model, so that we can see up close what separates class from crass.

 

Both of the models I'll show you are of the famous American warship, the USS Constitution. First we'll look at the high-quality model. This model is built from scratch in 1/48th scale. It was listed for sale at a reputable maritime art gallery. The price of the model was not listed. It's kind of like shopping on Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills -- if you have to ask the price, you probably can't afford it.

 

 

The fine craftsmanship of this model is everywhere evident. Note the detailed carvings, the meticulously neat painting, the clean run of planking, and the intricate web of rigging. True modelers endeavor to create models that are replicas of the original in every detail, with every part correctly proportioned. A great model looks like a real ship, only much smaller.

 

Now let's look at the expensive kindling. This model was once available on-line for $535. The owner of the site claimed that the model was built by "master craftsmen" using "original plans". It was described as "highly detailed" and built from "high-grade wood" using "plank on frame" construction.

 

 

Friends, none of those things was true. This model was probably built in either the Philippines or Vietnam by laborers who have never seen any plans of the actual Constitution. If they did see the plans, they certainly didn't follow them! The 'high-grade wood' includes western red cedar and mahogany, which are great for full-sized projects but not good modeling woods. When they say 'plank on frame' it is quite likely they mean 'plank on bulkhead'. That might sound like hair-splitting to the uninitiated, but they're actually two very different construction methods, entailing significant differences in both cost to produce and value of the finished product. And as for 'highly detailed'? Just look at the incorrect hull shape, cheap metal castings, simplistic window framing, coarse-grained wood, and adhesive name badge. And don't even get us started on the ship's boats hanging from the sides. This model is low-budget in every respect. It is crudely conceived and poorly executed.

 

If the two models we just looked at were cars, the first would be a Ferrari. The second is a Trabant.

 

So, if you have a Mystery Model, take a good, hard look at it. Does it look like a finely crafted miniature ship? Or does it look a bit rough? If it's the latter, then it's most likely not a unique piece of art. If you were hoping to resell it at a premium price, you'll quickly learn that its market value is less than you might have hoped for.

 

Next: It's a real model, but so what?

[EJ_L]

Chris,

This is great information and although I find myself chuckling quite a lot while reading it as I used to find myself having to give similar explanations on the value of handcrafted wood work vs mass produced pieces when I was selling my own work at shows.

 

As you have stated often MSW does get a lot of inquiries about the value of random generic ships and many people don't understand the difference between the cheap one from China that was purchased at a store or a well crafted model by a master craftsman. Or the other big misunderstanding that even if it was handcrafted and has been in the family for generations it still may not be of any value other than sentiment as often the quality of the work is no greater than that cheap decoration ship from China.

 

It is good that you are taking the time to educate people. Much like Chuck's thread on banned ship kits and the reasons behind the ban, this kind of message can seem mean, cruel and unfair but if understanding can be achieved then appreciation of the true values can be had and the community becomes richer as a result.

[ccoyle]

Last installment!

 

Have you ever watched the show Pawn Stars on the History Channel? In this show, clients bring their treasures to the Gold & Silver Pawn Shop in Las Vegas, Nevada. The viewers then learn about the history of the item brought in and, ultimately, how much the item is worth. Most of the time, the owner hears that their treasure is not worth as much as they thought. Every once in a blue moon, though, some lucky owner discovers that their item is actually worth more than what they had estimated -- occasionally far more. But these instances are rare.

 

Such is the case with model ships. There are lots of model ships out there in the world, but relatively few of them are worth much. Many are essentially worthless, at least in monetary terms. In this episode, we'll look further into what makes a model valuable.

 

Let's suppose you have a model that you have decided looks like a real scale model and not a piece of mass-produced decor. Now you're hoping that since it's a real scale model, it must surely have value. Not so fast! There are models, and then there are models that people actually want and will pay good money for. To illustrate this point, I'm going to show you two real scale models. One is worth some money, and the other, sadly, is not.

 

First take a look at this model. It's a model of a real ship, the English revenue cutter Sherbourne, built in 1763 (the real ship, that is -- not the model).

 

 

You might be thinking that it's a nice model. You might even think that it's worth something.

 

Except this is the cheap model. If you or I were to take my model -- I mean, ahem, this model -- to a gallery thinking we've got a treasure, we'd be in for disappointment. To you this model might look great, but to the keen eye of a discriminating collector or knowledgeable gallery owner, it's got problems. The biggest problem is that it's made from a kit. You might not be able to tell that by looking at it, but savvy modelers, collectors, and gallery owners will immediately recognize this fact. Because it's built from a kit, this model is also not unique. There are dozens, possibly hundreds, of finished Sherbourne models out there. Besides being made from a kit, it's also made by a modeler with middling talent. Again, you might think the model is done very nicely, but experts will spot the amateur workmanship right away. Some visible aspects of the model are not true to the original, and techniques were used to make the model easier to build at the expense of scale fidelity. All of these things are knocks against the monetary value of the model.

 

But there's something even worse about this model: it's simply not what most buyers want.

 

There are exceptions, of course, but the really pricey models out there, the ones that collectors are willing to shell out several thousand dollars for, generally have three things:

1. Lots of guns.
2. Lots of rigging (sails and cordage)
3. Lots of fancy ornamentation.

My model -- I mean, ahem, the previous model -- has none of these things. It has few guns, little rigging, and essentially no ornamentation. What could a seller expect to be paid for a model like this? If the seller is lucky (really lucky) and can find an actual buyer for the model, he might be able to squeeze a couple hundred dollars out of it. That's, barely enough to even cover the cost of the kit and certainly not enough to make modeling a profitable enterprise.

 

Guns, rigging, fancy stuff -- that's what collectors want. Something like this model of HMS Thunderer:

 

 

Why might this model be worth some dough? Consider the following:

1. It has lots of guns (well, at least the gun ports for them).
2. It has lots of rigging.
3. It has lots of fancy decoration.
4. It's scratch built, not made from a kit. That means it's a unique piece of art, not one of dozens of built-up kits.
5. It's built to a high standard of workmanship. Someone who builds models like this has spent a lot of time honing his or her skills. 

 

Like any commodity, the prices fetched by model ships are based on two factors: suply and demand. Lots of people would like to own a museum-quality model. But the number of builders who can build such models is low. Furthermore, it takes a lot of time to build such models, so the output of them is low as well. High demand  + low availability = high prices. For a model like the earlier Sherbourne, the equation is low demand + high availability = low prices.

 

That's it in a nutshell. Like the folks hoping to strike it rich at the pawn shop, most model ship owners are going to experience a letdown when they hear what their 'treasure' is really worth. But cheer up - that unwanted model will still look good on your mantel, which can't be said for a Trabant!

 

Cheers!

[dafi]

But sometimes one get´s a real gem. 

 

Here is incredible Willi Meischl on the restoration of a "dustpan"-finding, narrowly escaping it´s fate. It proved to be a historical model of a Austrian trading brig from the 1870ies.

 

See the video of the restoration. Excuse the quality, it is from a VHS from 1988-1989 and we were lucky to still be able to transfer it :-) 

 

 

 

So better check twice :-)

 

XXXDAn

 

 

 

Allow some off topic:

Also enjoy Willi´s build of the model of the arctic explorer vessel "Admiral Tegetthoff", displayed in the technical museum in Vienna.

 

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Tegetthoff_(Schiff)

 

There is also a nice film from the ORF (official Austrian TV) that shows him building a 1:1 Model for a film of the expedition. Unfortunately not on Youtube as for Copyrights :-(

 

XXXDAn

Edited February 10, 2017 by dafi

[FarTraveler]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 5:01 AM, EJ_L said:

Chris,

This is great information and although I find myself chuckling quite a lot while reading it as I used to find myself having to give similar explanations on the value of handcrafted wood work vs mass produced pieces when I was selling my own work at shows.

 

As you have stated often MSW does get a lot of inquiries about the value of random generic ships and many people don't understand the difference between the cheap one from China that was purchased at a store or a well crafted model by a master craftsman. Or the other big misunderstanding that even if it was handcrafted and has been in the family for generations it still may not be of any value other than sentiment as often the quality of the work is no greater than that cheap decoration ship from China.

 

It is good that you are taking the time to educate people. Much like Chuck's thread on banned ship kits and the reasons behind the ban, this kind of message can seem mean, cruel and unfair but if understanding can be achieved then appreciation of the true values can be had and the community becomes richer as a result.

As a stained glass artist in addition to a model shipbuilder, I get the same kind of questions and give the same kind of answers. A Mexican--or even Chinesse copy of a Tiffany lamp is worthless... and ugly.

[Estoy_Listo]

This series is a good reminder to this newcomer to manage my expectations. What I aspire to and what i achieve (if I'm gloriously successful, mind you) will look like these before and after pics.  

[DSiemens]

Great stuff.  I've seen mystery models a lot on MSW as well as in my local club.  I do enjoy the guessing game they can turn into but in general yeah they arent worth a fortune.  There is some historical context that can be applied to a few of them.  This one for example I found in a thrift store.  I didnt purchase it because its worthless and I can build better.  It is antique though as it comes from a ship in bottle kit from the fifties.  A noticible aspect is the rope around the bottle.  The kit came with a bittle precut that was glued together once the ship was inside.  This was another aspect that makes it even more worthless.  A true ship in bottle goes through the bottle neck.  If the glass is cut a real collector will not give it a second glance. 

 

 

[DSiemens]

One more that I've seen a a surprising amount of and they have a cool history.  In the late 1920's a man by the name of  Captain E Armitage McCann advertised ship modeling books in popular science magazine.  This was during the depression and his books were written to appeal to the poorer working class that might want an inexpensive hobby that would add some decor to their house.  This was also during a time some times referred to as the arts and crafts period.  The industrial revolution automated and mechanized so many thing so peoplewere afraid they would lose touch with real craftsmanship.  So they would hand build house decorations to keep rooted in manual hand built arts and crafts.  

 

Any way Captain McCann did several books with these types of models and I've run into three such models that were built from his books.  Here's one I found on Etsy.  It sold,for around $50.  Goes to show some have an interesting history and are antiques but they still aren't worth much.  Still I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a McCann model built in the 1930's one of these days.  

 

 

[MrBlueJacket]

As you can imagine, we also get a lot of these requests at BlueJacket. I have started referring people to this thread. Thanks, Chris for laying it out so clearly.

 

Nic

[TammyNGeorgia]

Hi! I have a few ships that look like the ones you mentioned that are for decoration. However, I have one that I have been unable to identify for over 15 years and it’s very old. I was told over 150 years! I love this ship and would love to know more about it and have it restored! I hope someone can help me here!

[TammyNGeorgia]

This was gifted to my step father over 50 years ago. 

[freelime]

Hey everyone! I'm totally new to the forum as well as the real world of model ships. :) I grew up sailing and was always drawn to sailing-related things. So the other day I went into this small antique store in Budapest (Hungary) and found a totally wrecked model ship, and went home with it. It's beautiful but needs a lot of reparations. I did some digging on what model it could be but so far found no pointers, and that's why I'm here. Is there a place I could post pictures of my boat where you, experts could take a look? Would it be here? So far I haven't found a better topic to ask for help in identifying the ship.

 

Thanks for your help! 

[ccoyle]

1 hour ago, freelime said:

Would it be here? So far I haven't found a better topic to ask for help in identifying the ship.

The Nautical General Discussion area (down towards the bottom of the topics list) would be a good spot.

[freelime]

18 minutes ago, ccoyle said:

The Nautical General Discussion area (down towards the bottom of the topics list) would be a good spot.

Thank you! I posted a discussion there.

[mtdoramike]

This thread is spot on CC, I'm glad to see someone take the time to educate people on this issue. I did take note about the shag carpet and avocado appliances though, I like both hahahahaha. This reminds me of clients who would want me to build a ship model for them, they would start off wanting a museum quality piece until I explained to them the cost and time involved in such a request versus a very good display or décor piece. They would always opt for the display or décor piece, they will look basically the same, it's just one is built from a kit or kit bashed to cut down on time and cost versus a scratch built project. 

[Wendy Lux]

Hello everyone, is this thread an American thread?  I am curious if the subject matter has an effect on the value of the ship.  For example if it is an Knight’s Templar ship complete with details such as mask head in gold, gold thread cross sewn on the flag closest to the mask head when all of the other sails are brown with the Templar Cross on them.   What type of materials are looking for to have been used?  Would details such as ship bell be a positive?  Ship name has been hand scribed in gold but the second part of the name is barely visible now 

[Ellen Mulder]

Hi everyone,

I'm absolutely new to this forum and the world of model building. I'm from the Netherlands.

I was wondering if someone could help me with information on: Caravella di C. Colombo 541/SM Pinta (Aeropiccola)

I bought one recently, but have never built a model of anything before. I was wondering if you know how old it is? What price I should ask if I were to sell? And where I might best try selling the kit or model. I'm assuming it's worth more now, than when I've made it. It would be fun to give it a go, but maybe I should sell this one and try with a simple/cheap kit instead. Since I have no idea what I'm doing. Also, how do people know the scale of the model? I see people writing about 1:2000 or something like that, but I can't find anything like that on the box. Does that mean mine isn't to scale?

The model kit is complete and comes with an instruction manual in Italian and in English. Hoping I successfully attached a picture to this post.

Any information or suggestions would be appreciated very much so. 

 

Kind regards,
Ellen Mulder

Edited April 27, 2019 by Ellen Mulder
Didn't attach picture correctly. Will try again.

[ccoyle]

Ellen,

 

Look for the word "scala" (Italian for "scale") on either the plans (usually in the lower right corner) or box. Pinta is a very common modeling subject and available from numerous kit manufacturers. The Aeropiccola version is likely to be older and not up to the same standards of quality as newer kits. If you were to sell it on an auction site like eBay, I would expect that you might get something in the neighborhood of US$50. It's not a high-demand kit. As for something to build yourself, there are many kits out there that are suitable for beginners -- your choice will depend in some measure on what type of subject appeals to you.

 

Kind regards,

[Ellen Mulder]

Thanks for the information ccoyle!

 

I haven't found scala anywhere, but I think the model is from 1987 or after. I found the year on the advertisement leaflet.

 

I would actually be happy with the $50 because I bought it for €2,50. From your comment I gather ship kits can be very pricey. I'm too nervous to start anything myself, and think I'd need to see a great model ship up close to get properly inspired. I have no idea what I would build. Do people also build docks for their boats? Little lighthouses? Do they ever see if their ships stay afloat and catch the wind for real? How about building a model with cardboard and paper? How about submarine models?! 😅 I feel like I have a lot more research to do. So much I have no clue about.

 

Kind regards,

Ellen

[mtaylor]

Hi Ellen,

 

Welcome to MSW.

 

To answer some questions.. yes, some do quite some displays with docks, etc.  Most of us don't float our boats as they're too fragile, but in the Kit area there's an index of all the logs, pick the one that says: RC which should cover most of the ones that see water. I put a link to the index below.   As for card, yes again.  Same for subs.  Those can be kits or scratch and again, they should be in the index.

 

For starters, if you're thinking of building on, look around the gallery and see what draws your attention.  But to start, start small, maybe a small craft like a canoe or rowboat and then one with one mast.  Work from there. The advantage of starting small is you'll learn much and at not a large investment in tools or kits.   And by all means start a build log when you do.  You'll get help from others and also make some friends. 

 

Link to the Index: 

 

[Ellen Mulder]

Hi Mtaylor,

 

Thanks for all the tips and suggestions. I will check out the post you attached to your response. If and when I take a stab at building I will log my attempt 😅, that's a great idea. 

[kurtvd19]

I just came across this topic when Chris directed a new comer to MSW to it.  I was unaware of it till today and now that I am aware of it, I will be providing the link to those writing to me asking if I can identify or fix their model.  It will be a real time saver. 

I have also provided the link to Mary - our NRG Office Manager - so she can send it to people who contact our office asking for help.  This will save her a lot of time and will also save me time (again) when she doesn't direct the questions to me.

Like David I wish I could see the face of some who said "OK but how much would you charge to fix it". 

Kurt