Lady Nelson by vossiewulf - Amati/Victory Models - 1:64

[Rick01]

(Fingers in ears) LALALALALALALA

So "no" :-(  I'll try not to do that to you any more, but I just couldn't live with the thought of you mounting the bowsprit and then finding a problem.

Any chance of getting a dispensation and maybe having a single oxen sacrificed at the finish? We could all come over for a barbecue then.

 

Rick 

[vossiewulf]

So "no" :-(  I'll try not to do that to you any more, but I just couldn't live with the thought of you mounting the bowsprit and then finding a problem.

Any chance of getting a dispensation and maybe having a single oxen sacrificed at the finish? We could all come over for a barbecue then.

 

Rick 

 

Before I became a Silicon Valley geek, spent most of my life in NC, so it has to be a pig. Slow cooked for 18 hours using one of a few good hardwoods for smoke, with just a little apple cider vinegar injection. Served with Worcestershire sauce and oniony cornbread deep-fried hushpuppies with enough butter to kill a moose.

 

None of that heatheny vinegar-red sauce those heatheny heathens west in Lexington eat, or the even worse mustard sauce the complete freaks out east eat. And we won't even mention cow.

[vossiewulf]

So anyway, have managed to do lots more work, still without putting on a plank, But it's mostly one-time setup time as I make myself stuff that will work for future projects as well. In this case a shooting board for tapering planks and something just a tad more sophisticated than Chuck's end of a clamp on the edge of the bench.

 

First was putting on the stern fascia and putting the nightmare hopefully behind us, starting with removing the paint from the glue areas of the fascia piece.

 

 

And glue it on. First step was yellow glue on the back of the center fashion pieces because it had to sit there for a minute, and then CA along the bottom line of the fascia. Here the sides haven't been glued.

 

 

Sides were then glued but then I noticed a poor glue line at the bottom of one of the center fashion pieces so I drilled a hole in the back (it's getting planked over) and beveled the edge and worked some CA glue in from behind and hand clamped it into position. Yet another way to fix a problem joint.

 

 

Then flushed the sides.

 

 

I decided that I wanted a shooting board for tapering the planks and a little male bending jig like Chuck uses to go along with the female one that comes with the plank bender. Lots of steps in here getting 1" x 1 1/2" rock maple ready. I then cut two pieces about 28" long, and added telescoping brass tube/rod registration pins, one side drilled for a glued-in tube, other for a fitting rod.

 

Once that was done I could true the shooting edge, I have just done that here with my jack plane.

 

 

Then more drilling and screwing and countersinking and things to get it mounted where I wanted it.

 

 

This shows how it works, you can see the registration pins that keep the pieces perfectly even.

 

 

Next the male bending jig thing. French curve to draw the curve I want.

 

 

Of you mean I need to use my Byrnes disc sander now? Oh no twist my arm. This pic is also an advertisement for the Excalibur 16 scroll saw, I'm not aware of too many that can easily work through 1" rock male.

 

 

It's an advertisement for this disc sander that it chewed easily through rock maple and making this entire curve smooth and what I wanted was quite easy.

 

 

Clamped to desktop, ready to go.

 

 

Then was just need to sharpen the LN squirrel-handled plane and test.

 

 

 

I think these modeling loins are about as girded as they get.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2017 by vossiewulf

[Rick01]

Looking good Can't see any problems arising in the next steps given the way you're setting it all up.

 

Rick

[vossiewulf]

Looking good Can't see any problems arising in the next steps given the way you're setting it all up.

 

Rick

 

Thanks Rick, I'm sure you guys are at the GET ON WITH IT ALREADY phase, but with planking I'm doing every bit of prep I can think of, it's the only way to figure out which steps are really important and which aren't. Whatever my process ends up being, it will definitely be simpler and more streamlined than this extremely careful preparation.

Edited February 9, 2017 by vossiewulf

[Rick01]

Thanks Rick, I'm sure you guys are at the GET ON WITH IT ALREADY phase, but with planking I'm doing every bit of prep I can think of, it's the only way to figure out which steps are really important and which aren't. Whatever my process ends up being, it will definitely be simpler and more streamlined than this extremely careful preparation.

 

Actually no - it's the one area I rather dislike and know that it has to be taken pretty slowly so I'm expecting you to be pretty quiet for a while once the first couple of planks have been fitted.

Is the second planking going to be .6mm or a thicker variant - reason I ask is that the capping rail assumes that the bulwarks have been fitted with two layers of 1mm timber so bulking out the bulwarks would be needed if using .6 mm

 

Rick

 

Rick

[popeye the sailor]

you should be ready now       my,  you've sure had your share of problems..........way too much progress for me to comment on.  .....like those bulwark panels....I hardly use them.......I've had my fun with them in the past.   I simply plank everything     with the planking direction your going to go by.....I see little trouble.   

[vossiewulf]

Finally got to sit down last night and start putting on planks.

 

Although it's going fine I'm still thrashing around with the process, but it will get considerably quicker from here; fitting the planks isn't taking me very long. The only issue is that I haven't found an acceptable way to clamp yet, so I gave up for the moment and am just using CA glue and hand clamping, applying glue in three sections as I work down the plank.

 

Technically that would work for the outer planking too but I'd prefer not to be planking with expensive boxwood using the one chance to get it right CA method. I tried various pins and those plank clamps - part of the problem is this ship is so small, the plank clamps would work reasonably well on a bigger ship.

 

I'm going to stop about halfway through the first planking and work on that problem again until I have something workable, I very much want to use the inner planking to try out whatever I'm going to use on the final planking, would rather not be trying something for the first time there.

 

Rick, the boxwood planking is a very different size from the inner planking, being about .6mm x 4mm, considerably thinner and narrower than the kit planks. So more planks needed but should be much easier to do.

 

So anyway, planking.

 

I wasn't taking pictures with the first one, just get to see results.

 

*

 

 

This is basic workflow as of now. Start with ensuring joint surface on ship is clean and ready using the trusty rifflers.

 

 

Mark the required tapers on each end, for these planks it's .108" on the bow and .140" on the stern, and then position them in turn on the shooting board and plane the taper, this step literally takes about 30 seconds.

 

 

 

Besides fast, it's also quite accurate.

 

 

Then use a solid graphite pencil on the edge to be beveled, makes it much easier to see them and know whether you're done. I probably shouldn't be doing this since I won't use this method on the final planks as it's possible the pencil would show in some places (like deck caulking).

 

 

First plank starboard side.

 

 

Trimming down adding more planks.

 

 

Repeat, got two planks on each side before calling it a night, not bad considering I spent half the night trying to figure out how I was doing the next step. With everything worked out except clamping, hopefully can make quicker progress.

 

Starboard and port.

 

 

[BANYAN]

Vossie, I found that using rubber bands around the hull with balsa wood block wedged between band and the plank worked best.  I also put a strip of electricians tape on the block face closest to the plank to avoid any glue seepage sticking to the block.  I tried all those different clamping adaptions but found this to be the easiest to use and proved quite effective.  The thicker rubber bands proved best and they simply stayed on the hull throughout and I simply adjusted the blocks as required.  if you get the right tension/pressure on the rubber bands the blocks keeps everything in place and yet the keel etc won't get marked.  In some places I had to use additional larger blocks to get the right pressure but the basa was dirt cheap at the local hardware store.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Rick01]

I also use the broad rubber bands plus lego bricks for additional pressure where needed - the bricks are also useful when something needs squaring but you have little space to place any tools.

 

Rick

[Seventynet]

I use rubber bands and cut up eraser blocks instead of balsa blocks. You can apply all sorts of different pressure vectors that way. Love your work!

 

Ian

[vossiewulf]

Thanks guys, good ideas! Much appreciated I especially like Ian's idea of eraser blocks.

 

The idea I had that I'm also going to try is this:

 

 

This is an old cheap riffler file in cut 0 or so, pretty coarse, and snapped it into little pieces. I'm going to glue them on the bottom of small blocks. I tested, and they will grab a plank face quite firmly without leaving bad marks. I think Ian's idea is better but I think this should work also and since I already murdered the file I might as well follow through and see.

 

Anyway, off to see if Amazon Prime Now with two hour delivery has erasers and big rubber bands. I love Prime Now, last time I went to our Bellevue office (just outside Seattle) to visit my team there I forgot my mouse, and I had Prime Now deliver me a new one in two hours to my hotel room.

Edited February 11, 2017 by vossiewulf

[vossiewulf]

The answer is yes, yes they do Three types of large rubber bands and two types of erasers- the traditional pink ones and some modern white polymer ones, will be here by 7PM. This is where there's an advantage to living in the Bay Area.

 

Also Rick I have lego blocks, going to grab a pile of those too.

[Rick01]

It's surprising what we define as a tool here - flexible emery boards and double sided sticky tape come to mind. 

 

Rick

[vossiewulf]

It's surprising what we define as a tool here - flexible emery boards and double sided sticky tape come to mind. 

 

Rick

 

To a modeler, the whole world is his tool.

 

Wait that didn't work.

 

To a modeler, the whole world is just a bunch of tools. 

 

Crap that's even worse.

 

The world is a tool and the tools of the world make... the modeler.... CUT! I'll come in again.

[vossiewulf]

So here is my clamping idea, the Mk.I Advanced Filamper. Yes, all of my tools are born advanced. Naturally. When I improve them they become Uber. And yes they are named whatever damned fool thing pops into my head, it's tradition.

 

So I grabbed a couple sizes of dowels and scroll-sawed them down the middle lengthwise.

 

 

Rabbet with miniature rabbeter.

 

 

Then glued all the file pieces to the rabbeted dowel and then sliced them apart into individual Advanced Filampers. 

 

 

And they work fine as long as tape holds. This one isn't pulled tight but I was able to exert goodly amount of force when I did pull them tight. Of course a better idea in general is rubber bands, but the geometry of the tape makes it easier to generate more force in the desired direction.

 

[gjdale]

Neat idea Jay. It strikes me that small pieces of sandpaper could be used as an alternative to file pieces - maybe a little cheaper in the long run

[vossiewulf]

Neat idea Jay. It strikes me that small pieces of sandpaper could be used as an alternative to file pieces - maybe a little cheaper in the long run

 

Thanks Grant. Yes, sandpaper will work also but it's also more likely to slip and leave cross-grain scratches; I picked the rough-cut file as it should bite just a little with lines going with the grain. But if you don't want to kill innocent riffler files, sandpaper is the best choice.

 

That said, please note the file I used was a hobby store $1 file, not one of my $10 G/V rifflers.

[vossiewulf]

Going to show a few more pics below of a problem I had to fix last night, another example of something I missed due to my noobishness and simply not knowing where all the minefields are.

 

Also, don't think I am imagining that anyone commenting on this thread is learning anything from what I'm doing, I'm showing what I'm doing so 1) you folks can say OMG DONT DO THAT if you see me heading down a bad path, plus 2) Rick has saddled me with the responsibility of creating the greatest build log/practicum ever for new people building LN, one so perfect that 100 years from now modelers will still be saying "man, THAT was a good practicum," earning themselves odd looks from the floating cyborg barista at their local Starbucks zero-G bar.

 

First a couple pics for new people showing how I'm marking my planks, showing bow and stern ends, which side is the current glue line, and where the tapers begin. In my shooting board we line the start of taper mark on the top edge of the plank flush with the shooting board surface, and the other end is positioned so we remove everything down to the taper mark.

 

Before and after bow taper.

 

 

 

And I'm using this Modified Passaro Bender for the vertical bends, wet plank, bend it more than is needed, clamp in place, hit it with heat (hair dryer or plank bender) and then let it cool.

 

 

So, with each plank I'm figuring out the geometry of the joining surfaces better, and each glue line is better than the last. And there I was feeling all fat and happy about that and congratulating myself when start dry-fitting the third plank on the port side.

 

 

The bulkhead strips were registered on their top edges in the stem slot, I never considered the possibility they'd have different heights. And of course they did. And it looks like the first couple planks just exacerbated it.

 

If this were the second planking, I'd probably tear off the port planks and start over. And if I decided I couldn't do that, I'd be doing calculations to split the amount to be removed off the remaining planks to minimize the noticeability of the fix. However, since this is the first planking I'm going to take it all out in one shot.

 

Caliper set to .108", the height of the bow end of the planks. We can see how much we have to take off that plank on the right

 

 

Mark the removal line.

 

 

Start removal with xacto.

 

 

Then riffler files to straighten and bevel correctly for new glue joint.

 

 

 

Check, looks like that's correct.

 

 

For inexplicable reasons didn't take a photo of the fix spot after putting on the third plank, I'll post one later But we do see that the glue lines are getting better with each one,

 

 

Unless something else interesting happens, otherwise I'm going to be head down finishing the first planking run, will post more pics when we get there

 

 

 

[Rick01]

Hands up anyone who has never had to make this sort of adjustment in a build! I find Mk I eyeball really comes into play all the way through planking, doesn't matter how carefully you measure something creeps in when your back is turned.

 

Rick

[popeye the sailor]

then comes the burning question........if this is to be the first planking,  why was that so important?  you could have made up for it with the next pair of planks.       did you correct the side that seems to be sticking out?   it's good that your putting some thought into it........but it will be even more critical when the second planking starts.   as Pat mentioned......it might not be a good idea to have the plank run seams in line with one another,  due to cracking issues down the road.

[vossiewulf]

Popeye, you're correct I'm spending more time on this than is necessary, and for my second and third and fourth ship I won't be spending this time. But remember this is my first ship, and very shortly I will need to do the outer planking which does require as close to perfect joinery as I can do.

 

I could just race through this section and then try to produce that high quality joinery, but that would seem to be wishful thinking. So instead I am trying to learn how to get the fit I want on the outer planks by practicing on the inner planking layer. Somewhere above I said it better by saying I now have 28 inner planks with which to learn quality planking before I have to do it for real.

 

So this is a first-model workflow not to be repeated on later models.

 

And it's working, I mentioned above each plank that's going on is fitting better with less effort, and I'm figuring out which steps are really important to get that fit and which aren't, and I'm running into the problems I would face on the outer planking beforehand so I hopefully don't face them at a time where it will be orders of magnitude more difficult to fix.

 

And I have a new set of questions and another problem that I need to ask about, now that I'm halfway through the inner planking.

 

First question has to do with beveling plank edges - I watched Chuck's videos and he seems to not do any beveling of the edges he's not gluing, and does all of the required beveling to make the next plank fit correctly on that next plank. I'm wondering if that is the standard method or whether people try to do it more as it was really done, with the edge of each plank being perpendicular to the tangent of the bulkhead/frame at that point, meaning that you split the required bevel between the two planks so each gets some instead of Chuck's method where only one is beveled and that bevel needs to be more extreme.

 

The former method makes more sense to me but requires a beveling step on all edges instead of just half of them.

 

And now the next problem -

 

When it came to the required bow and stern taper, after laying it out it looked very close to a straight shot in both cases, so I've been tapering from the last full-sized midship bulkhead in each direction down to the correct bow and stern plank sizes (midships is 3/16", bow is .108" and stern .140" for the first 10 planks).

 

However I now think that was wrong and the taper on the bow needed to be done in steps, or most accurately it should be a slight curve from midships to final bow width. At least that's my explanation for what I'm seeing now, which is that the midships and bow dimensions are right but the interim widths are slightly too narrow, And was we've added up those small width misses we now have a significant one.

 

Since this is inner planking I can use whatever means I want to fix that in this case, the concern is how to avoid it with the final planking. So am I correct here in what is happening? And if so, what's the best way to do a curving taper like that?

 

 

 

[BANYAN]

 Vossie,

 

There are many ways to skin the planking cat if you accept you need to spile.  My prefered method is to bevel on the upper edge of the new plank (same as Chuck I think).   I found that if I put a bevel on the lower edge of the laid plank (before fixing), that I often had to bevel the top edge of the new plank also anyway.  The top edge bevel only meant that I could get a good clean joint knowing the plank above had a good solid straight edge to butt to and some light sanding levelled any thickness difference.

 

Looking at your last photo I think you may be tapering too much (I know some of this is due to angle of the shot and angle the model is sitting, but there appears to be an upward sweep developing.  I think you are doing it the same way I did, in that I only tapered where I needed, and for me it was not from half way, but further forward or aft.  I was doing Endeavour though and she had very rounded (bluff) bows so the planks were pretty level for at least one half the length of the ship.  

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited February 13, 2017 by BANYAN

[vossiewulf]

Another one for new folks, if you don't fill the bulkhead spaces in with blocks, the long midships first planking section in particular will flex, making it trickier than it should be to sand to the smooth curves you want for the second planking.

 

Answer is Sepping's angled bracing for Lady Nelson:

 

Take some scrap inner planking strips and cut one or two grooves into them like this.

 

 

Put glue on the side without the grooves, position, then press down making them fold at the grooves so they follow the inner curve well enough for a good glue joint. Once that's done, fill the grooves with super glue and set with accelerator, end result is a strong and rigid support following the curve of the planking.

 

And it makes those sections much more rigid so they won't flex during sanding. I did this after 6 planks, you could do it after 7 (halfway). I'm considering filling in the remaining areas to be planked with some basswood.

 

 

[Rick01]

You're right in taking your time and getting the first planking correct even if it won't be seen - you can't exactly experiment with the second planking when it's on show. I find that tapering starts one bulkhead past centre and should be a gentle taper on each plank with bevelling on the tapered (upper) edge only. The first couple of planks shouldn't need a taper as the prow and sides are pretty well vertical - as the hull starts to curve so the tapering is needed (hope that makes sense).

I'm pretty sure this is the point where many beginners throw there hands in the air and the kit in the bin, but pushing past it is well worth the struggle.

 

Rick

[vossiewulf]

Thanks Pat and Rick. I'm not anywhere close to throwing hands in air, I expected these kinds of things and were I to rip off everything planked so far and start over again it would be massively better as I've already run into the major things having to do with laying it out and tapering and beveling. It's exactly what I was hoping would happen, to see and figure out solutions to these things before we get to the final planking.

 

I think you're both right that I started the tapering too far back, and now that I've seen this I know that if you have a more vertical stem, the more likely the taper isn't going to be straight and you need to start a little forward at least. But I'm going to take the time to draw it out in Photoshop or Illustrator, I bet it's actually a noticeable curve and for best results I'd have to largely skip using my plane and focus on using abrasives to get that curve correct.

 

As for beveling, sounds like Pat says 100% bevel on the lower edge of the plank you're gluing on, and Rick says bevel the upper edge The one thing I don't hear is trying to do both sides, but I think what Pat is saying make for easier adjutment/fitting.

Edited February 13, 2017 by vossiewulf

[Rick01]

I didn't expect you'd be throwing in the towel - just popped the comment in for any beginners in the hopes that they will not give up but push on past this point.

 

Rick :-)

Edited February 13, 2017 by Rick01

[gjdale]

Jay,

 

There are some tutorials on Spiling somewhere here that would be worth your while reviewing. Essentially, tapering and bevelling really only account for two dimensions. Spiling takes into account the curve in the third dimension. That means that your planks will actually be curved when looked at laid flat on the table, but will appear straight (ish) as they follow the curve of the hull. Hope that makes sense.

[mtaylor]

The tutorials Grant mentioned are here:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/forum/14-building-framing-planking-and-plating-a-ships-hull-and-deck/  The first two pinned topics.

 

There's also one here that's much simplified:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/forum/14-building-framing-planking-and-plating-a-ships-hull-and-deck/   The database of articles has a lot of great info it.

[vossiewulf]

Thanks guys, I had actually read those, but I'd ruled spiling out as a factor since doing it correctly requires planking material three or four times the width of the intended plank, and we don't have that in a kit. The boxwood planking from Crown Timber that is intended for the final planking is even smaller, at 4mm wide, so I assumed this was something reserved for people scratchbuilding that was one area where scratchbuilding is a bit easier than kit building since we can't do that.

 

I think the main issue for me here is that I didn't recognize the need for the taper on the bow end to be a pronounced curve, not at all a straight line between midships and bow as I cut, and hence the interim widths of the plank at the last two stations prior to the stem are much too narrow; otherwise I have no difficulty doing what this guy says is impossible, to bend a plank along its width and twist it so it lays flat on the bulkhead.