HMS Tiger 1747 by Siggi52 - 1:48 - 60 gun ship from NMM plans

[druxey]

I believe that scarphs in 'hook and butt' were formed as your sketch number 3.

 

The Tiger's draughts seem to show a single, broad wale rather than the earlier style of three strakes, two of which were thicker and black. It would be reasonable to assume that the earliest 'broad' style wales were laid as three parallel ones, rather than top and butt or anchor stock.

[Siggi52]

Hello Druxey,

 

that is exactly what I though, but did't know. Thank you

[SJSoane]

Hi Siggi,

 

I see your dilemma. I never looked very carefully at the wales with two separated black strakes, because they were before the time of my ship. I cannot see the joint in the first example you showed, which is the condition you are constructing. Are there any other examples you have in your great collection of photos that you could show here?

 

I would assume that the three strakes are indeed separate from each other, not hooked to each other. Why call it out as wales and stuff between, and then paint the three strips separately, if the joints in the underlying construction are not three separate, continuous lines? Anchor stock or butt and hook would obviously have the joint line wavering up and down, crossing back and forth across the paint line. This does not seem logical.

 

If this is the case, then the hooked joints called for in the establishment would only apply to a single strake's planks connected together horizontally. I would assume the joint would be like the first or third sketch, since the second does not have a hook. I assume it would be like the third sketch, only because the Bellona's wales a few decades later put the hook in the center of the scarph, not offset like your first sketch. I would assume the later joint in the Bellona evolved from the earlier one you are trying to understand.

 

But this is all speculation on my part. I look forward to seeing how you resolve this!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[Siggi52]

Hi Mark,

 

many thanks for taking the time for answering. My ship has a single broad wale of three strakes. As Druxsey mentioned above. I tried to say that in my post, but my english 

 

At the models you would't see any joints, they build the strakes from stem to stern in one piece. What I would like to demonstrate with the pictures is, that the strakes running straight and only three of them, so that you could't build the anchor stock or top and butt. 

 

That was my plan and Druxey confirmed that. The only thing was the butt and hook. There I will take the No 3.  

[garyshipwright]

Hi Siggi. Went looking in the library and only came across two, one that shows the joint and one that talks about the hook and butt joints. The book 18th Century Shipbuilding, remarks on the Navies of the English and the Dutch, by Blaise Ollivier,1737 done by David H. Roberts and published and distributed by Boudriot. The other is The Anatomy of the  ship The Bomb Vessel Granado1742 by Peter Goodwin. On page 52 he shows in figure 6/3 through6/6 the make up of Granado wale made up of 3strakes showing the upper and lower put together like your bottom drawing. Some would say the Anatomy of the Ship is full of mistakes, which I have found some but doesn't stop me from using what I think is right as long as you can back up what your using.I look and see if I can come up with some more for you. It also shows that the middle one as just having a butt joint. Gary

Edited February 18, 2018 by garyshipwright

[druxey]

The Granado book is based on a modern model, I believe.

[garyshipwright]

Druxey I do believe you are right sir and it says that Peter based his book on the work of Bob Lightley's  superb detailed model which is in the National Maritime Museum. Well thats ok, I still vote for drawing number 3. ;o} Gary

[Siggi52]

Hi Gary,

 

thank you for taking the time to search through your books for my problem. What you say, is what is in the 1719 establishment written. Even that the middle strake has the same thickness as the two outer strakes. I know from most of the models I have seen, that the middle strake is thinner. But I found now, when I looked for that, two models where the middle strake has the same thickness as the two wales and all three strakes are painted black. 

 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66385.html Kent 1725

 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66395.html Ipswich 1730

 

That brings me to the question, should I build it the same way? If they build the wales with all three strakes of the same thickness, then they painted all strakes black. If they build the middle strake thinner, they paint only the two wales black. Not the middle strake.

 

Interesting in this case is also, that they build the upper wales, in the models Kent and Ipswich, with a thinner middle strake. In the list of establishment is nothing mentioned as for the "lower" wales. Only the breadth from the upper to the lower edge, 2ft 4in (for all three strakes), wrought all of a thickness to 4in. I would say that means, that they have also an even thickness. That showed us, that every shipyard has it's own way of building and they did't follow the list of establishment strictly.

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

first I have to say many thanks for your likes, comments and help. Second I have to announce, that the raw hull is mostly ready. Only the inside is not really ready. But that will come after the outside is planked, for a better stability. 

 

So the next work is to make the wales and then plank the upper part of the hull.

 

 

 

[SJSoane]

Siggi,

 

Your figurehead looks great, so early in the project. It gives a strong indication of the quality yet to come. I imagine it also keeps you thinking, "everything needs to be as good as the figurehead"!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[paulsutcliffe]

Hi Siggi

Beautiful lines on the hull, did you carve the figurehead? Superb work

Regards

Paul

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

Mark, I give all, that it will get a good ship.

Paul, the lines of the hull are not my work, but I carved the figure head. It takes me 3 weeks to carve this one and 2 month to carve all three versions.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Siggi52

[paulsutcliffe]

Let me know if you want to get rid if one of your other two versions, I'm sure they will be better than any attempt I could do

Regards

Paul 

[Siggi52]

Hello,

Paul, if you have strong glasses and sharp knifes, I think you can do it too  Leo II is sitting here at my computer desk and would't leave it.

 

Today I'm started with planking. At first the wales. I made the lower strake and half the thick stuff at both sides.

 

 

 

I made first the butt and hook joints and glued them together. But if the joints are sanded and painted black, you would hardly see them 

 

 

 

 

 

So far for today. The rest will follow tomorrow.

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

and many thanks for your likes.

Today I finished the wales. That was harder as first thought and the next days I need to get the notches out of my thumbs, from pressing down these stubborn strakes  

 

 

 

 

[SJSoane]

Siggi,

 

Very nice, and also very fast with perfect quality. Did you steam or heat bend the plank in your jig?

 

Mark

[Tigersteve]

What kind of wood are you using for planking?

Steve

[mati]

Hi Siggi

I have to say that I'm always impressed when I see work like yours.

It's just a begging of the build but already we can see that is gonna be amazing model.

 

Your previous models are smashing!!

How come I've missed them earlier? 

 

Really looking forward to follow your updates. Can't wait to see more photos!

Good luck!

 

Take care and kind regards,

 

Mateusz

Edited February 24, 2018 by mati

[Siggi52]

Good morning,

 

thank you all for your likes and comments.

 

Mark, I'm wetting the planks lightly with water and heat them up with my hot air gun, during putting it in my jig. If you did't have a hot air gun, give your hair dryer a chance. For thinner planks you did't need a jig. Just warm the wet planks up until they are dry and install them.

 

Steve, I use mostly Black Alder for planking. For decks I use Pear and for carvings Castello.

 

Mateusz, I do my very best to hold the quality 

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

today only an short update without much words. The upper wales are ready. 

 

 

 

 

[SJSoane]

Siggi,

It is looking great. You are inspiring me to try to move faster!

 

I notice the line you have drawn for the sheer rail, the next line of thicker planking further up the side. It does not match up or align with the "knuckle" or sharp bend in the foremost frame. It may be different in your ship, but in mine the two line up (see photo below).

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[Siggi52]

Mark, your pace is ok. But I have the most simple version of wales and that is faster to make. 

 

What you have scribe on your ship is the waist rail, the sheer rail is one step deeper. At my ship the next line above the upper wales and then comes the waist rail. I scribed only the top edge.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Siggi, that makes sense.

 

Mark

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

first, many thanks for your likes and comments.

 

today I finished the so called black strakes. That was quite a task, but now it's done. I like the view of the fore ship, it looks like a bursted ball 

The next thing is to plank the rest to the upper wales.

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by Siggi52

[druxey]

I hate to criticize a lovely job but, to my eye, the run of plank into the bow rabbet looks a little steep. Is the top of the main wale at the correct height or a little too high? If it's not exactly right (as I discovered from personal experience) the headwork will not sit correctly at the bow. Hopefully it's just due to camera angle or distortion.

[Siggi52]

Hello Druxey,

 

don't worry, I see that not as a critic and for that I'm here in the forum. I have at the moment so much to oversee, there is a fault easy done.

 

It looks a bit step and I measured it immediately after reading your post, but it is ok so. You may see a shadow under the wale at the first bulwark to the right, that is the original measure point there. But the points at the stem post and the second bulwark are exact as at the plan. So the step would be more step from the first bulwark to the stem post, if I had't  adjusted it.

 

That is may be a problem with these plans, there it looks even, but in reality is there than a kink. If you look at the last picture, seen from the side it is not so step. But the ship is really round at the bow. 

 

So, thank you for asking

 

 

[druxey]

I'm glad that all is well, Siggi! 

[Siggi52]

Hello,

 

today I finished the planking of the port side, between the wales. These gun ports slow your really down and I have a lot more of them above the upper wales  

 

 

 

[SJSoane]

Siggi, it looks great. I am noticing for the first time, how straight the fore edge of the stem is, in relationship to British ships later in the eighteenth century. Very distinctive!

Mark

[Siggi52]

Hello,

and many thanks for your likes and comments.

 

Mark, that are the remains from the ships of the 17 century. I think she is also at the stern a little higher than later ships. 

 

Today I finished also the starboard side of the ship and now I will begin to plank the upper part of the ship. But there arose a question.

 

How did they build in the rails? I made a sketch of that what I mean.

 

 

For the Dragon I used the version 2, but now I'm not really sure if that was right. At most models, where you could see it, they are set above the planking. That may be a short cut. But from the dimensions in the list of establishment they could also build it like in version 1. The sheer rail should be 8in broad and 3in thick, the waist rail 6,5in broad and 3,75in thick. The planking here is 2in thick, so they would stay 1 or 1,75in (0,5 or 0,9 mm) out of the planking.

 

If I set them above the planking they would stay 3 or 3,75in (1,6 or 2 mm) above the planking. And for that the rails are too low at the models.

 

 

Many thanks in advance