Recommended paint pens for detail work?

[RussR]

Does anyone use paint pens for detail work on wood or metal parts? If so, what is the recommended brand/type?

I am concerned about the paint bleeding over. 

Thanks,

RussR

[Azzoun]

I've used Sharpie Markers to paint things black with happy results.  

 

[RussR]

9 minutes ago, Azzoun said:

I've used Sharpie Markers to paint things black with happy results.  

 

Thank you for the reply.

I have to but, my experience has been that Sharpie Markers will bleed over to the adjacent areas.

 

[reklein]

My grown daughter paints rocks and Posca Brand paint pens are the preferred brand in that hobby. They give a nice sharp fine line. They are then sealed with a clear coat to stand outside weather which probably won't be needed for interior work. I would give wood a clear coat seal before any fine line painting is done.

[shipman]

My experience with 'sharpie's' and permanent markers is simply, they aren't permanent over time.

Also, I'd have serious doubts about the long term permanence of ink jet printed decals and the carrier film.

[Bob Cleek]

42 minutes ago, shipman said:

My experience with 'sharpie's' and permanent markers is simply, they aren't permanent over time.

Also, I'd have serious doubts about the long term permanence of ink jet printed decals and the carrier film.

A lot depends on the color and the brand. I've found that the Sanford "Sharpie" permanent black markers are indeed "permanent" and very black. I've had other color felt-tip markers fade very quickly.

[shipman]

There's another thing................ I was trained as a graphic artist when computers weren't even on the horizon. The thing we learned about acrylics was out of all the options available, acrylics were the most unstable. Even now they tend to bleach out with time.

Beware....if your pride and joy gets even a little sunlight at the stern (for example), the other end will eventually become a different shade of the colours you used.

At the end of the day, the stuff was made to paint your lounge!

[shipman]

Bob, I'm glad you found a reliable permanent marker and shared that info with us here.

If Sanfords aren't available where Joe lives, out in the sticks somewhere, it's a matter of trial and error.

[shipman]

(YT. it's natural light, not crud, that is the problem. The fundamental nature of a transparent coating is that light gets through. Photons are little balls of energy and each and every one makes it's mark).

For my sins, I spent four years achieving a baHons as a fine/graphic artist and worked professionally for 25 years.

Good to hear everyone is happy with acrylics and I genuinely wish you continued success with them. I do agree, they are very user friendly and have many admirable properties. I don't wish to dissuade anyone from using them. Like everything else in life, it's all about being happy in what you do.

 

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, shipman said:

Good to hear everyone is happy with acrylics and I genuinely wish you continued success with them. I do agree, they are very user friendly and have many admirable properties. I don't wish to dissuade anyone from using them. Like everything else in life, it's all about being happy in what you do.

Any painter experienced with the use of traditional oil-based paints, recognizes the shortcomings of acrylics and their "water-based" ilk. Call them "user friendly" if you wish, but the term I find more appropriate is "dumbed-down." Even assuming an experienced painter masters their use, at the end of the day, regardless of how successful the effort, you're left with an acrylic coating. They keep making them better over the years, but they just don't compare. Regrettably, we can no longer obtain the quality scale oil-based paints like those once produced by Floquil and Humbrol and must now mix our own using traditional artists' oils.

[shipman]

Bob....a voice in the wilderness.

Here's my FINAL comment on the acrylic subject. A little experiment which anyone can do......take a square of your favourite material and give it a coat of any acrylic paint you wish (for extreme results use a red). Cut your square in half. Put one inside a cupboard/drawer and the other somewhere in your house that gets a little direct sunlight. In 6 months or better, a year, put the two pieces side by side and see the difference. It's that simple.

Have a long and happy life.

[Bob Cleek]

8 hours ago, Y.T. said:

 

Beauty is in the eyes of beholder. 

This particular adage is an expression of philosophical relativism which is another way of saying that it has no objective validity. From a relativist perspective, it is only true if you believe it to be true; the truth of the adage is itself in the eye of the beholder. From a realist perspective, it is simply untrue; its so-called “truth” being the usual relativist error of confusing and conflating goodness, truth and beauty with preference, prejudice and opinion. Oddly enough, unlike beauty, it seems there's a general consensus about what's ugly.  

 

Seriously, though, beauty doesn't have much to do with it at all. Acrylics have gotten better since they first came on the market and are now quite good, but their present limitations make them inferior to oil based paints for use as serious fine arts and modeling applications. They have not been around long enough to say with unqualified certainty that they can be considered archival. We just don't know yet.  Having experience with both oil and acrylics in modeling applications, these are my concerns with acrylics:

 

They pose challenges when applied with an airbrush. Water dries much more slowly than volatile solvents and makes it difficult to spray water-based acrylics continuously. Slow drying paint makes it much more likely that curtains and runs will occur and waiting for the longer drying time is inconvenient.

 

Some acrylic paints tend to form a grey veil on their surface or develop yellow discoloration with aging.

 

Acrylic paintings attract and gather dirt easily.  Acrylic emulsion paints used in the fine arts have glass-transition temperature (Tg) near or below room temperature.   This means that acrylic emulsion films will always be soft at room temperature and that the paint surface will hold onto dust and dirt and even unite them into the film. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that acrylic resins are non-conductors and tend to have electrostatic charges on their surface which attracts dirt.

 

The soft film formed by acrylic paint will easily abrade or dent with just fingernail pressure.  This type of damage can ruin the perfectly smooth surface of

a model which must display a perfect surface to be true to scale. This is particularly so with topsides, which are subjected to considerable handling stress during the building process.

 

Mold growth has been noted on acrylic paintings and has become an increasing concern among artists and collectors.  Unfortunately, there is no ideal treatment that does not cause some degree of damage to the original paint.  Mold growth tends to become apparent when humidity and temperature rise. Mold growth on a model which is viewed closely is seriously damaging to the overall impression of the model.

 

There are many trade acrylic paints that have been used by artists and the range in their quality is broad.  "Small bottle" premixed acrylic "hobby paints," as opposed to the expensive high quality fine arts tubed paste acrylics, tend to be at the lower end of the quality range, primarily for price considerations. The lesser quality paints tend to have cheaper colorants which fade easily under ultraviolet light.  Thus, fading colors which change the tonal balance of the work may be due to the intrinsic nature of the materials and cannot be reversed by conservation.

 

As they say, "Your mileage may vary." Surely, there are many ship models being built today which are of a quality that doesn't warrant worrying about the concerns I've noted. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Bob Cleek

[shipman]

Bob, what you just said was right on the tip of my tongue LOL.

[Richmond]

The refill pens this company makes seems to be getting popular - irritating website I'm afraid https://www.molotow.com/

[Dr PR]

I have about 65 years experience with artists oil paints and modeling lacquers and enamels. Recently I tried acrylics for the first time on a ship model.

 

I decided to use acrylics because the water solvent doesn't have an odor (I was working indoors in the winter) and I can use water to clean the brushes. First I applied a lacquer sanding sealer to areas to be painted (or clear lacquer to parts where I wanted to see the wood grain). After this dried I applied the acrylic paints over the sanding sealer. The paint did not bleed into the wood.

 

I used the "small bottle" hobby acrylics from a craft store. I never got the paint to apply evenly with my air brush and the mechanism clogged every time (even when highly diluted), so I gave up on that. Then I applied the paint with brushes. It dried slowly enough that I didn't have runs of streaks. I had to apply two or three coats to get a good color.

 

Do not use these paints on a ship model! They appear to dry fairly quickly, but days later they were still about as hard as butter! The paint was easily scratched by my finger nails. It was impossible to use masking tape over the paint. All of the paint lifted off with the tape. This was the worst experience I have ever had with any type of paint! I will never use acrylics again!

 

I have read several opinions about diluting acrylics with isopropanol (rubbing alcohol) or another alcohol solvent, or a water/alcohol mixture. But there does not seem to be a consensus about how to do this, so it remains conjecture in my opinion.

 

Polyscale used to make the best paint for modeling I have ever used - especially for airbrushing. The solvent was isobutanol. It had a slight peculiar odor but it wasn't objectionable (to me). Unfortunately, like everything else, it was known to cause cancer in California and is no longer on the market.

 

I have had much better results with lacquers and enamels.

 

Artist oils dry very slowly - it takes weeks for an oil painting to dry enough to be handled. If you dilute them with a fast drying solvent you may get a dull finish. But I guess you could finish by applying a thin clear overcoat to give the finish you desire.

 

 

[shipman]

Acrylics!

The very best I've found are the 'Citadel' paints from Games Workshop. They dry quickly and set rock hard. I've never found any paint so pigment dense. They are 'brush on' and all the ones I've tried need only one coat! Down side is they are expensive and come in small jars. But one jar covers a big area.

The American 'One Shot' paints which auto pinstripe and lettering artists use appear to be very similar; I don't think they are acrylic. I've never seen them in the UK and only seen youtube demo's. They do seem to do what it says on the tin. Again, expensive.

If they work, then the price shouldn't put you off trying the odd pot of either brand.

[Dan Vadas]

Take a look at THESE Pitt Artist Pens. I use them in my paper modeling and find them quite good. No bleeding whatsoever and they come in a large range of colours that can be "adjusted" to a certain degree by using one colour over another. Also come in various sizes of nib from extra-fine to Brush size, but only in a limited range of colours for some sizes.

 

Danny

[Richmond]

I would hazard a guess that the majority of plastic models are painted with acrylics nowadays and probably masked with Tamiya tape. There are many wonderful examples on here.

 

Tamiya acrylics are my go to paint (they are not a true acrylic) - thinned with Mr Colour Levelling Thinner (you can use IPA) many people are going over to the true acrylics for health /enviro reasons - personally I don't like them but have seen wonderful models produced with them

 

On the assumption you are not cutting corners with cheap rip offs, your issues with your acrylics /masking are probably due to builder error/inexperience

 

There is a good article on masking in the recent journal.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Richmond
Added thinning

[Bob Cleek]

11 hours ago, Dr PR said:

I have read several opinions about diluting acrylics with isopropanol (rubbing alcohol) or another alcohol solvent, or a water/alcohol mixture. But there does not seem to be a consensus about how to do this, so it remains conjecture in my opinion.

Some brands of acrylic paint are soluble in alcohol. One has to experiment. I've had only moderate success airbrushing when thinned with alcohol. They did not cover well and required repeated application. Alcohol speeds up the drying time a bit. The other shortcomings of acrylics remain.

 

11 hours ago, Dr PR said:

Artist oils dry very slowly - it takes weeks for an oil painting to dry enough to be handled. If you dilute them with a fast drying solvent you may get a dull finish. But I guess you could finish by applying a thin clear overcoat to give the finish you desire.

Adding Japan dryer to oil paint accellerates the drying time. Artist's oils are compounded for sale without dryers because picture-painting artists often like to rework their paintings, blending colors directly on the canvas over a period of time. Japan dryer should be available in any paint store. It's also sold in small bottles in art stores at a much higher price. Generally speaking, a glossy finish isn't desirable on a model. As noted, a clear gloss coating can always be applied if one so desires.

 

6 hours ago, Richmond said:

I would hazard a guess that the majority of plastic models are painted with acrylics nowadays and probably masked with Tamiya tape. There are many wonderful examples on here.

They don't pose any potential archival problems on plastic models. The acrylic coatings are likely to last longer than the plastic!  

 

9 hours ago, shipman said:

The American 'One Shot' paints which auto pinstripe and lettering artists use appear to be very similar; I don't think they are acrylic.

Correct. "One Shot" sign painting paints are an oil based enamel with a very high level of finely ground pigment, just what is wanted for models. They are glossy and require a flattener be added (or hand-rubbing) for modeling work. And, yes, they are expensive. Professional freehand sign painters in the US use nothing else. 

[shipman]

Looks like you're the Guru, Bob. Good to hear your input.

[GrandpaPhil]

Vallejo makes the best model paints that I have ever used.  They are just very expensive.

 

I usually use Delta Ceramcoat for my models, card, wood, plastic, lead, metal or resin.  It has always worked well for me.  I like the matte finish and that it can be used to make washes or dry brush.

 

The only kicker is that some materials have to be sealed with Mod Podge for 24 hours prior to painting, or the paint will not stick.

[Richmond]

On 12/4/2019 at 3:17 AM, Bob Cleek said:

On 12/3/2019 at 3:16 PM, Dr PR said:

I have read several opinions about diluting acrylics with isopropanol (rubbing alcohol) or another alcohol solvent, or a water/alcohol mixture. But there does not seem to be a consensus about how to do this, so it remains conjecture in my opinion.

Some brands of acrylic paint are soluble in alcohol. One has to experiment. I've had only moderate success airbrushing when thinned with alcohol. They did not cover well and required repeated application. Alcohol speeds up the drying time a bit. The other shortcomings of acrylics remain.

If you get chance have a look at Scaleaton and Plasmo's builds on Youtube (both superb modelers) they are not shy in using IPA to thin their acrylics. Personally I prefer Mr Color Leveling Thinner to thin my Tamiyas and Mr Colours. There is a school of thought which states you should thin with own brands - I assume this would only apply to the solvent based acrylics  - I believe true acrylics can be thinned with water however I have never used a true acrylic so couldn't say for sure.

 

For those stating that acrylic paints are expensive - in comparison to what ? I assume you are not shooting undiluted acrylics through your airbrush - they need to be thinned - when you bar a jar of acrylic you should get, as a minimum, 2 to 1 use - to me this is good value.

[Bob Cleek]

This thread got me wondering whether pre-mixed solvent-based enamel model paint was available at all in the US these days. I was surprised to discovery that the old standby, Humbrol, is indeed alive and well with US headquarters in Washington State. https://www.humbrol.com/us-en/  I couldn't find any listing of retailers and I suspect there are few, given that so many have "gone over to the dark side" with acrylics. They are still selling it mail order via the internet in their iconic "tinlets" for $2.50 a can. They also make a full line of acrylic paints these days.

[shipman]

Ah yes, the evocative aroma of Humbrol enamels. Revel had their own in suspiciously similar ''tinlets.'' Recently I was talking to someone in the trade, to be told they shared the same manufacturer!

Fortunately I still have (unopened) most of the range of colours. No doubt they'll be little collectors items in their own right, even though the contents will probably be solid now.

[Duanelaker]

4 hours ago, Richmond said:

For those stating that acrylic paints are expensive - in comparison to what ? I assume you are not shooting undiluted acrylics through your airbrush - they need to be thinned - when you bar a jar of acrylic you should get, as a minimum, 2 to 1 use - to me this is good value.

I am very new to air brushing and have been using vallejos air line of paint, I assumed I shouldn’t thin this paint since it’s designed for air brushing out of the bottle...should I be?  I’m not too concerned with money as all of it is cheaper then the cigarettes I used to smoke lol but I don’t like being wasteful.

[Bob Cleek]

6 hours ago, Duanelaker said:

I am very new to air brushing and have been using vallejos air line of paint, I assumed I shouldn’t thin this paint since it’s designed for air brushing out of the bottle...should I be?  I’m not too concerned with money as all of it is cheaper then the cigarettes I used to smoke lol but I don’t like being wasteful.

If you are getting satisfactory results out of it in your airbrush, you're doing it right. Customarily, acrylics that aren't pre-thinned for airbrushing should be thinned at a ratio of two parts paint to one part thinner. Formerly, all oil-based paint was formulated to be "conditioned," meaning thinned as needed. No knowledgeable painter would apply paint "right out of the can." With the advent of the DIY market, however, paints started being "dumbed down" so the uninitiated DIYers could use it "out of the can" without getting terrible results and blaming the paint company for those. Curiously, with oil-based paints, at least, this led to formulations with higher VOCs (solvents) and when the environmental regulations starting going into effect all over the place, they were back to square one with "thicker" paints that had to be thinned again in order to keep the as-sold VOCs below the legal limits. The water-based paints and acrylics, having little or no VOCs, then began to take over the market to comply with the low-VOC limits. Good paint has never been "cheap" and paint is one of those things where you get what you pay for. The problem with model paints, which require large amounts of finely ground pigments to cover without detail-concealing paint build up, were always for these reasons among the most expensive (since the most expensive component in paint are the pigments, some colors much more than others.) Add to that the cost of retail inventory overhead for hundreds of pre-mixed colors and packaging in little tiny bottles and cans, and an ounce of model  paint becomes some of the most expensive paint on the planet. The most economical way to paint models with fine pigment archival-quality paint is to use quality tubed artists' oil paints and color-mix, thin, and condition them with linseed oil, turpentine and Japan dryer yourself. A small bit out of the tube can be mixed and stored in your own bottles for a while before it goes bad, but the bulk oil in the "toothpaste tube" lasts a long, long time. Artists oils are sold in varying degrees of opacity and are easily sourced in high-pigment-load form which permits full coverage without paint building up and destroying fine detail on the model.

[Bob Cleek]

On 11/29/2019 at 4:06 PM, Richmond said:

The refill pens this company makes seems to be getting popular - irritating website I'm afraid https://www.molotow.com/

It had to happen: a line of canned spray paint designed for "taggers."

[Richmond]

5 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

It had to happen: a line of canned spray paint designed for "taggers."

I was referring to their acrylic paint refill pens 

[wefalck]

The thread veers off from the pen-topic, but just to add a couple of comments on acrylics and airbrushing:

 

- there are different formulations of acrylics, using either plain water or water-alcohol mixes as solvent; using a different solvent may actually break down the kind of emulsion state in which they are, clogging the airbrush in the event; it doesn't need to be their brand of thinner, but it does have to be chemically the same.

 

- I don't know too much of the model manufacturers' range of acrylic paints, as I don't really need these 'authentic' colours they specialise in; I am using artist's acrylics, either from the German manufacturer Schmincke or the Spanish Vallejo (which are first catering for the artist market and then for modellers); getting the dilution right for spraying always has been a pain and some 30 years ago I already went for the ready-diluted ones; some of my drip bottles are that old and still give good results.

 

- the process of hardening of acrylics is a mixed one, cross-linking the acrylics molecules and diffusing out the solvent (water); both take time and therefore it takes longer than for paints based on organic solvents and hardening resins; spraying thin coats in 24h intervalls speeds up the process of hardening, as the water doesn't have to diffuse through a thick layer.

 

- spray-painting with enamels and their likes in an apartment is a no-no, because it is difficult to install a proper extraction for fumes; with my acrylics I get away with just a cardboard box to catch the overspray; depends always, of course, how often you use the airbrush and how big the areas to be painted are; cleaning the airbrush from enamels is also an issue, due to the waste solvents, while acrylics can be easily cleaned under running water.

 

I have a big collection of Humbrol tins, some of them probably historic by now (could be 50+ years old), but I have rarely touched them since I bought the airbrush in the early 1980s.

 

 

[Richmond]

16 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

I am very new to air brushing and have been using vallejos air line of paint, I assumed I shouldn’t thin this paint since it’s designed for air brushing out of the bottle...should I be?  I’m not too concerned with money as all of it is cheaper then the cigarettes I used to smoke lol but I don’t like being wasteful.

Have a look at their website - I am sure it can be thinned - in fact I have some Vallejo thinner in my stash