Rigging colors

[Bill97]

The most recent kits I have purchased come with only white line for rigging. The instructions say to soak the line in tea to achieve the desired color. Instead of doing this I plan to just purchase different sizes of rigging thread from hobby supply shop. However the tea recommendation made me wonder if the dark brown color (almost Coke like) is actually more accurate than the black I have used on previous builds for standing rigging? I can purchase either dark brown or black. I am thinking the dark brown standing rigging could be visually interesting. 

[Jaager]

Tea and coffee extracts contain organic acids which have a degrading effect on natural fibers over time.

A Walnut wood dye ( not a stain for natural fibers) will come close and not kill the rope.

Running rigging was not white, hemp and Manila are not white to begin with and a small degree of tar was applied during twistup..  Standing rigging - pre-petrol (1859) was not black.  It was Pine tar that was used. The shade can be controlled by altering the concentration of the dye.

 

Because extraordinary effort is required now to even obtain linen yarn for a rope walk.  And the quality control for that could be better (Baltic - Etsy). 

Because of practical availability problems, a kit supplied rope may not be a natural fiber.  Synthetics may present an interesting challenge to color.  I have no suggestions for this.  Apart from PVA, anything synthetic or man-made is far outside my personal rules.  

[Chuck Seiler]

I have experimented with ink.  The closest color I prefer is with Higgins Sepia.  Unfortunately this is not waterproof so I treated it with conservator's wax.  I don't know how long it will remain colorfast...I guess we will see.  My alternative is Dr. Ph. Martin archival Sepia India Ink.  It claims to be waterproof and permanent.  I don't like the color as much as Higgins, but I believe it is acceptable.

[Roger Pellett]

There was a series of posts on  March 12 on this same topic.  

Edited March 27, 2021 by Roger Pellett

[Gregory]

Bill97, 

 

Since your actual question is about color of 3rd party rope, I think you will find that dark brown is in favor for standing rigging, and a hemp color for running..

 

Since you are going to the expense and trouble of buying out of the box, look for quality that actually looks like miniature rope, and not just different sizes of string/cord..

 

Here is a post about one of our sponsors CraftySailor

 

 

[Bill97]

Ok guys after I started the post I decided to just buy model ship  rigging thread. I initially was only able to find a color called Coke Brown. So I ordered several sizes of that color. After the order I continued to search because I was not sure about using that color for standing rigging. I was eventually able to find black so I ordered several sizes and canceled the order for the coke brown. I am currently working on the Wasa and after I complete it will begin my long awaited tackle of the Heller HMS Victory. These are the two builds I have ordered the thread for. Now after reading several of your replies I am wondering if I should have stuck with the coke brown instead of switching my order to black. 

[allanyed]

Bill

If it is not a big problem I would forget the black. The standing rigging was darker due to being "tarred" but this gave it a dark brown color, not black as it was not a tar like we see today on our streets, but rather pine tar.  Your Coke brown looks pretty good.   For the running rigging something close to a color like Pantone 14-0721 TCX would be a good choice, but most any tan should be OK for the running rigging.  

[Bill97]

Thanks allanyed. These are the rigging threads I have decided to go with. Coke brown and in 3 sizes, .3, .4, and .5 mm for my 1/144 scale Wasa. First build not using black for standing rigging. Anxious to see how it turns out. Sure it will raise questions from people who view my model ship room as to why is the Wasa brown. Will need to be ready with great answer 😊

[archnav]

I know it's a bit unusual, but I use real linen yarn and make my ropes on a specially designed machine. I dye my ropes exactly the way it was done back then, with real Stockholm tar.

The following photos are just an example of how well this works and how real it looks.

 

[Bill97]

Beautiful job archnav!  Measuring my first brown shroud before seizing. Brown is definitely different from what I am used to. 

[archnav]

34 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

Beautiful job archnav!  Measuring my first brown shroud before seizing. Brown is definitely different from what I am used to. 

I would take a little more darker brown.....about the same as your mast wooldings are

[allanyed]

Bill,

Can you do a close up photo of the rope.  It looks more like thread or string than rope from the pics.    If that is the case, you may want to consider another source or taking the plunge to making your own.   As to black versus brown, you can explain to viewers that  there really  never was any black rope.  From what I have been able to find, the Stockholm tar is actually a distilled product.

 

Arch,  where do you get your Stockholm tar?

 

Thanks

 

 

[archnav]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

Arch,  where do you get your Stockholm tar?

 

Thanks

 

 

Hi Allan,

in 2003 I was in Stockholm visiting the Vasa museum.

I was in contact with Hans Soop, the author of several books on the sculptures and figure decoration of Vasa. He invited me and introduced me to the director of the museum, who gave me unrestricted access to the ship. I could move around the ship freely all day and that was an absolute privilege at the time.
I had many interesting conversations with the people from the Vasa Museum and I also learned something about taring the rigging.
I did a little round trip with a friend through the Nordic countries like Sweden and Denmark and we stopped in many coastal towns to see the maritime museums there and talked to the people.
It was in a small fishing village in Sweden, I can't remember the name, that I noticed a boat builder who was still tarring his ropes as in old times. At that time, he told me the recipe with which the original "Stockholm Tar" was made and still is. He gave me an old tin of his mixture, about 250 ml, which I brought home with me.
I also visited the original rope factory in Roskilde in Denmark, which made the cordage for the Viking ships. There, too, they showed me how the tar is made.

When I started to work intensively with cordage and its production more than 10 years ago, I also made my first experiments with tar. I learned how to refine the recipe so that it could be used for model ropes to dye dark and light ropes. It took a few tries, but the result is so authentic that by now I only use original linen yarn and genuine Stockholm tar.

Of course, the production of such cordage is complex costly and time-consuming. But the result is extraordinary. I made the rope in the photos more than seven years ago and it has not changed in colour. It is a real cable, four-stranded with a core, for a stay or a shroud.

There is only one dealer in Europe who imports original charcoal tar "Stockholm Tar". But you can hardly work with tar alone. It has to be specially diluted and mixed with other substances so that it can be used. So it needs a special recipe. The rope must also be treated with it in various stages of production. Just dipping the finished rope into the tar does not bring success.

The production of such ropes is really extremely complex and hardly anyone wants to do so. In any case, I think it is worth it, because the modellers of the time also worked with natural dyeing and preservation methods.
 

 

[BenD]

I've been trying to make decent looking ropes and have experimented with many colors. That tared rope archnav/Tom made is amazing.  Using real Tar on linen... My hat's off to you sir.

 

Bill show us some closeups of the rope you got. From the looks of it that may be a little to light colored. 

 

Here is a picture of my best efforts of rope making so far. The colors are close I think. The lighting is throwing off the colors a bit.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by BenD

[Bill97]

Guys here are a couple close up pictures of my .45 and .55 mm rope. The close up to show the appearance of twisted rope. I think the .45 is a slight bit darker than the .55. I have a few spools of this color and sizes including a .35 mm and a matching sewing thread. I completed the lower shrouds for the main mast including seizing the shroud pairs. Not yet attached to deadeyes. Since I already have the rope and completed the lower mainmast shrouds I am thinking I will just go with it. Hopefully I will not be expelled from the model ship building community 😊. In case you are wondering, the setup with the alligator clips on sticks in front of my Wasa is how I do my rope seizing. Have not yet sprung for a rope seizing machine!  Put the ends of the rope in the clips and manually wrap the seizing rope around and around between the previously marked points. 

[allanyed]

Thank you Tom!

Bill,

Is the material in the photo the Magi Gift string?  I do not mean to be negative at all, but it does not look like rope but more like string or thread.  I know that with Syren no longer making rope, buying realistic rope is difficult, but I believe there are still some suppliers out there that offer rope versus thread like material and hopefully some members can offer some sources.     I am not looking forward to the next time I have a project that requires rigging as it will be my first go at making my own rope and I have trepidations galore.  

 

[BenD]

The rope that is now being sold on Crafty Sailor look's pretty good.  I would like to start selling my cotton rope in the near future and there will probably me more people to fill the gap where Chuck's Syren rope was. 

 

Bill, the rope you got looks a bit like the stuff you find in kits.

[hornet]

If making your own rope, haunting antique and collectable shops is worthwhile. Apparently the old cotton reels are now collectable. I’ve managed to gather quite a collection of linen and cotton threads in a range of colours and diameters that are much better quality than modern thread. 

[Bill97]

Allanyed at the 1/144 scale I am working at on my Airfix Wasa and after putting it in the case I will make for it, hopefully viewing eyes will not be able to pick up the difference between this thread and model rope. Thankfully it is not “fuzzy”. My main curiosity is the brown color. That is the visual risk I am taking. 

[archnav]

16 hours ago, allanyed said:

I am not looking forward to the next time I have a project that requires rigging as it will be my first go at making my own rope and I have trepidations galore.  

Hi Allan,

sorry that my answer above was so detailed, but I thought it would be interesting to you.

It`s sad to here that Chuck is no longer producing model rope, it was quite looking good.

 

If you and others are interested:

In the meantime I have built the fifth model-ropery and developed a professional machine that can twist at 4500 rpm. I have spent many years developing a professional machine, also the production of optimal cordage has cost me many thousands of attempts.
Today, however, I am able to produce model ropes between 0.1 mm and 8 mm in diameter. Two-stranded, three-stranded, four-stranded with core, hawser layed or cable layed. I have experimented for a long time to be able to produce the perfect model rope and have orientated myself on the production techniques of the 17th and 18th centuries.
I have studied all the books and documents from this period in detail and will also write a book about it one day........if I live that long.

I have already thought about whether I should post a detailed report on the production of a professional model ropery, because that is a lot of work and at the moment, as you have noticed, I am still busy researching the ENDEAVOUR.
I would also show the making of model rope step by step. Most model ropes are far too soft and loosely twisted and can be pulled apart like chewing gum with the slightest strain. This is a common problem with those who try. But that's only because they don't yet know exactly how to do it, that's all. The machine and the knowledge are elementary prerequisites for success.

So if there is interest, I will make an effort to make an appropriate post. A longer introduction to the basics of rope making and a bit of historical knowledge, would then be the first areas.
So if that is really wanted, then I will try to do my best.

[BenD]

Tom, I would love to know what you know. I'm currently in the design stage for my 4th ropewalk that can do up to four-stranded rope hawser and cable. I have no idea how to go about making cored ropes however.

 

Bill, sorry for hijacking you're post 

[PRS]

22 hours ago, BenD said:

I've been trying to make decent looking ropes and have experimented with many colors. That tared rope archnav/Tom made is amazing.  Using real Tar on linen... My hat's off to you sir.

 

Bill show us some closeups of the rope you got. From the looks of it that may be a little to light colored. 

 

Here is a picture of my best efforts of rope making so far. The colors are close I think. The lighting is throwing off the colors a bit.

 

 

Man those are nice ropes!

[BenD]

11 minutes ago, PRS said:

Man those are nice ropes!

Thank you!

 

I really need to get a better camera to show the details. Then I need to make or find a website to sell the rope.

[Bob Cleek]

A couple of observations:

 

Pine tar is a very dark brown, close to black. "Coca Cola color" is really the best description I've heard. The degree of brown depends upon how much tar is put on the cordage. Standing rigging was heavily tarred (as much as it would soak up) to preserve it and so was so brown it was nearly black. At scale viewing distances, standing rigging would appear black.

 

 

 

A bit of thinned pine tar was added to the fibers when rope was laid up to preserve it. This gave new running rigging, which wasn't tarred after manufacture, it's golden brown color, which weathered to gray in the sun after a time. Cordage on sailing ships was traditionally made of hemp fiber, not sisal ("Manila") fibers. Hemp fibers and linen (flax) fibers are close to indistinguishable in their appearance and strength properties, although hemp has somewhat less stretch, is a bit stronger, and weathers better. Hemp was always more expensive than linen and linen more expensive than sisal.  Hemp has a softer "hand" than linen or sisal. 

 

As the governments around the world become more "enlightened," commercial hemp production is rebounding from near extinction. Hemp fabric and hemp thread, and rope, are again currently being produced and, it seems, becoming more available every day. A bit of googling with produce lots of sources for hemp thread. For ship modeling purposes, I presume hemp thread will be every bit as suitable as linen thread, which has generally gone out of production and is hard to source. I presume hemp would offer the same "archival" advantages of linen. If one wanted to get really authentic, they couldn't go far wrong using real tarred hemp thread for laying up scale rope, although I expect waiting for the tar to dry would be something of a pain and since pine tar is nasty, sticky stuff, dyeing it in some other way would probably be preferable. That said, the wonderful aroma of pine tar would improve the overall effect of any model and a dab behind the modeler's ears might make the modeler more attractive as well.

 

(Disclaimer: I haven't tried laying up scale rope from hemp thread as yet, nor have I researched all the possible sources and sizes of hemp thread available. A quick review indicates that there is a range of quality and sizes may be limited compared to the general thread selection of other types.)

 

Pine tar is readily available. It can often be purchased in small amounts in American sporting goods stores, which sell it for application to baseball bat handles. It's stickiness improves the batter's grip. Pine tar is also a staple in "tack shops" which sell equestrian gear. It is used to dress horses' hooves. It keeps them from splitting. It's also an old-time antiseptic for farm animals, particularly chickens. It's smeared on chickens that have been pecked by other chickens and not only is antiseptic for the "peckee," but also unpleasant for the "pecker." Pine tar is also used in the manufacture of certain soaps and as a treatment for human skin conditions, but isn't approved as such and for that use has been deemed carcinogenic.

 

Pine tar differs a bit, particularly in aroma, due to the methods of its extraction and processing. If anybody wants "real" pine tar as was traditionally used in the maritime trades, sometimes referred to as "Stockholm tar," it is available from at least three sources in the US that I'm aware of. George Kirby Jr. Paint Co. has been selling it from their shop in New Bedford, Mass. since the days of the whaling industry. George ("the fourth") Kirby also sells the best line of traditional oil based marine paint available today, together with all other traditional marine coatings. He is available by phone and will mix up anything you want upon request. https://kirbypaint.com/ 

 

George Kirby Jr. Paint Co., New Bedford, Mass. ("Since 1846") : https://kirbypaint.com/products/pine-tar

 

American Rope and Tar : http://www.tarsmell.com/tar.html

 

Fisheries Supply: https://www.fisheriessupply.com/marshall-s-cove-marine-paint-pine-tar

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Bill97]

BenD, no worries about hijacking. I am very much enjoying the discussion. You guys are so advanced of me and my hobby skills. Making my own rope is something I never considered when I began my love of building the classic tall ships. My love of the hobby was reborn a few years ago after I retired and had time to devote to it. And of course it has been a life saver during this Covid shut in. I built a couple as a teenager many years ago and then quit with life and family time and finance requirements. A few years ago after I retired I picked up the Revell 1/96 USS Constitution and decided I wanted to enjoy building it again. At the time I had no idea there was such a thing as MSW or any of the other build log sites. I wish I knew then what I know now.  I just followed the kit instructions step by step and whenever I was confused just winged it. I think it was on my second build when I stumbled on this site. I use it extensively now and have learned so much.  On a couple recent builds, including my current Wasa, there are steps and features completely eliminated or skipped over. Based on my new experience from MSW I know something should have been done here or there, especially in rigging. I no longer have to wing it. I can look here for my answers and opinions. So again, no worries about hijacking. I very much enjoy these discussion and passions about the craft. 

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

This question has been asked many times in this forum, it also has been answered many times.

 

Jean Boudriot in the 74 guns books describe this subject very well.

Here is an example of linen threads died.

[allanyed]

Older topic and from what I could find, a new question....   apologies if this had been asked and answered elsewhere.

When did merchantmen and naval vessels (Spain in particular,  European in general) start tarring standing rigging as a common practice?

Thanks

Allan

[Cold_Fire]

On 3/29/2021 at 7:13 PM, archnav said:

Hi Allan,

sorry that my answer above was so detailed, but I thought it would be interesting to you.

It`s sad to here that Chuck is no longer producing model rope, it was quite looking good.

 

If you and others are interested:

In the meantime I have built the fifth model-ropery and developed a professional machine that can twist at 4500 rpm. I have spent many years developing a professional machine, also the production of optimal cordage has cost me many thousands of attempts.
Today, however, I am able to produce model ropes between 0.1 mm and 8 mm in diameter. Two-stranded, three-stranded, four-stranded with core, hawser layed or cable layed. I have experimented for a long time to be able to produce the perfect model rope and have orientated myself on the production techniques of the 17th and 18th centuries.
I have studied all the books and documents from this period in detail and will also write a book about it one day........if I live that long.

I have already thought about whether I should post a detailed report on the production of a professional model ropery, because that is a lot of work and at the moment, as you have noticed, I am still busy researching the ENDEAVOUR.
I would also show the making of model rope step by step. Most model ropes are far too soft and loosely twisted and can be pulled apart like chewing gum with the slightest strain. This is a common problem with those who try. But that's only because they don't yet know exactly how to do it, that's all. The machine and the knowledge are elementary prerequisites for success.

So if there is interest, I will make an effort to make an appropriate post. A longer introduction to the basics of rope making and a bit of historical knowledge, would then be the first areas.
So if that is really wanted, then I will try to do my best.

Hi! Did you finally share this? Any link to another thread? Thank you so much!