HMS Victory by Will Ferris - Caldercraft - 1:72

[Will Ferris]

Hi All,

 

I just joined today after starting a build several months ago and would greatly appreciate any and all input.

 

Questions for everyone:

• Would one or two of you be willing to act a as mentor for this build?  Caldercraft seems to be a tad vague sometimes about when to paint what for example.
• Does anyone have any specific suggestions regarding hull treatments before I install the copper tiles? Do I need to apply a thin hand-rubbed coat of polyurethane first?  If so, water-base or oil?
• I found an assembly guide for copper tiling DeAgostini's kit.  They recommend using a glue from England.  (Solvent-free contact adhesive.)  What does this equate to here in the States?  I'm looking for something in stock at my local Home Depot.

 

Thank you Guys!

[ccoyle]

Hi, Will. I have no experience with copper sheathing, so I can't help you there. One of the best ways to get mentoring is attend local club meetings. Of course, not everyone lives near a club, but you never know. Check out the list here to see if there is a club near you.

 

Cheers!

[BenD]

The Caldercraft Tiles can be glued on easily with Thick CA glue, I used the Gorilla glue with the green top from Home Depot.  I did a light coat of water based polyurethane on the hull before applying the tiles.  If you are really unsure about it, do some off hull testing with some scraps.     

 

The closest thing to a mentor on this site is to look at other peoples builds (In your case Victory builds) and see what they have done.  You would be surprised what you would learn from others triumphs and mistakes.  

[Will Ferris]

Thank you both!

 

Chris - Very cool canoe; and I'll be keeping an eye on your PWS-10 build as well.

Ben - Your Sherbourne model looks incredible.  Such clean, concise lines!

 

I really appreciate your input and encouragement.  I went into the planking with the best of intentions, but even after reading and understanding everything available, my plank symmetry and uniform width plan never made it past about the 5th strake.  At least I wound up with a straight keel.

 

See below for today's final shot.

After sanding all planking flush with 120#, I mixed some walnut filler to sour cream consistency before working it in to the hull with some gloves and an old credit card.  While waiting for the filler to dry, it occurred to me that the brass double door hinge straps (See photos above) at the stern were going to need to come off for two reasons:

1. They were a mess! - "Free-handing" these into place with tweezers just isn't going to cut it.  Next time I'll try placing them with tape.
2. On second thought, and contrary to the build manual, I think it would be far easier to paint that stern area first rather than having to paint around them.

After the filler dried, I sanded again, ending at a final grit of 2000 this time.

 

Ben - How do you get a uniform amount of glue on each tile? I have never done it before, but it would seem too little wouldn't be good and too much would be worse.  Or is this a case of just try it a few times and I'll get it?

[Keith Black]

13 minutes ago, Will Ferris said:

I think it would be far easier to paint that stern area first rather than having to paint around them.

 Will, my experience with glue (CA) is it doesn't stick well to paint, whatever part I've glued to a painted surface always seems to pop off easily. I get away with painting first and then gluing by painting, applying poly (varnish, same thing) over the paint and then gluing the part in place. Glue (CA) holds much better to poly or varnish, IMHO. If you're not going to poly/varnish you might test paint a scrap piece of wood and glue something to the test piece and check the results for yourself. 

[Will Ferris]

Keith, Thank you so much.  This is precisely the kind of information I was hoping to find in this forum.  Great point!  I wasn't really planning on poly/varnishing, due to the "gummy" factor,  (Seen too many models ruined my opinion because they looked like they've been dipped in the stuff.) but given your point, what do you think about a thin coat of water based matte (or satin possibly) poly applied with an airbrush?  Do you think this would be enough to allow good adhesion?

[Keith Black]

5 hours ago, Will Ferris said:

thin coat of water based matte (or satin possibly) poly applied with an airbrush?  Do you think this would be enough to allow good adhesion?

 Will, I think it will but I strongly suggest using a test sample of wood to make that determination. I wipe or brush poly and paint, I don't have a airbrush. A airbrush may work but wiping the surface is so easy and it eliminates the need to clean the airbrush. But YOU have to use/do what you're comfortable with. I can't stress enough doing a test piece first. You've done such a great job so far, I wouldn't want you to do anything that you wouldn't have 100% confidence in doing with the expectation of being 100% happy with the results. 

[BenD]

11 hours ago, Will Ferris said:

Ben - How do you get a uniform amount of glue on each tile? I have never done it before, but it would seem too little wouldn't be good and too much would be worse.  Or is this a case of just try it a few times and I'll get it?

 

For glue application to the tiles I would squeeze out some glue onto a piece of masking tape on my desk and use a toothpick to add 3 small dabs to the back of the tile and apply the tile by hand. I found gloves or tweezers to be a difficult so I used my bear hands, Once you get the right amount of glue on each tile you shouldn't worry about gluing your hand to the ship.  Hope this helps.

[Kevin]

although i used C/A glue. evostick was used at the time by other builders

Evo-Stik Impact Adhesive - 250ml | Wickes.co.uk

EvoStik IMP2250 Solvent Free Impact Multi-Purpose Adhesive 250ml 346666 - - Amazon.com

 

but with a 2nd planking that good, i would avoid the tiles lol

Edited April 9, 2021 by Kevin

[Will Ferris]

22 hours ago, Kevin said:

but with a 2nd planking that good, i would avoid the tiles lol

You make me blush sir... (However, there's a reason I didn't post a photo of the bow after final sanding!)  Speaking of tiles, What would you guys recommend for a decent patinating solution for the copper?  I have seen a few on the forums ranging from vinegar to urine of all things!  I don't want the pitted fifty-year old look, but the bright new look doesn't look right to me either.  How about a look that's no longer bright and just starting to "green up" a bit?  Any suggestions?

Also, I noticed everyone seems to be in agreement that all tiles need to be individually treated before installation.  Why? I would think it much easier to confirm results first on a few spare tiles before just coating all of them at once after installation.

 

Today's progress:

Upper gun deck and corresponding port inner bulwark glued into place. (note appropriately sized pieces of wood at three places to line up inner and outer gun port openings.)

[Will Ferris]

I think I screwed up here.  I carefully placed my first "second" planks according to Caldercraft's manual, but since it never really addressed what to do about gun ports at this point.  I just left a small piece of plank out at each of the lower ports thinking I could cut everything back to the edges of the openings in the underlying plywood patterns later.  Um...  Any ideas?  Anyone know if Dremel makes a tiny flush cut "guide" router bit?

[Gregory]

38 minutes ago, Will Ferris said:

What would you guys recommend for a decent patinating solution for the copper? 

Once the copper is all done, assuming it doesn't have some kind of coating on it, just clean it real good with acetone and it will develop a nice patina in a few months.

 

If you  want something a little faster, put it in an enclosed space with a few chopped boiled eggs..

Check every few hours untill it looks like you want.

 

 

This is copper leaf that I put in a bag with a chopped boiled egg overnight..

[LucienL]

1 hour ago, Will Ferris said:

You make me blush sir... (However, there's a reason I didn't post a photo of the bow after final sanding!)  Speaking of tiles, What would you guys recommend for a decent patinating solution for the copper?  I have seen a few on the forums ranging from vinegar to urine of all things!  I don't want the pitted fifty-year old look, but the bright new look doesn't look right to me either.  How about a look that's no longer bright and just starting to "green up" a bit?  Any suggestions?

Also, I noticed everyone seems to be in agreement that all tiles need to be individually treated before installation.  Why? I would think it much easier to confirm results first on a few spare tiles before just coating all of them at once after installation.

 

Today's progress:

Upper gun deck and corresponding port inner bulwark glued into place. (note appropriately sized pieces of wood at three places to line up inner and outer gun port openings.)

The stones on you sir for attempting this as your first model... It looks incredible so far. With the coppering, if you want a penny brown look, liver of sulfur is the way to go. The patina is affected by how much the copper has been handled and any glue will block it. I'd guess that's why you're better off ageing it before installation. Although on the other hand, when you install the aged plates, you do lose some patina. This would look better than having finger prints and glue spots totally blocking the patina from even developing.

[Will Ferris]

Greg & Lucien,  I like your thinking.  Where on earth did you come up with the egg?

Those stones Lucien refers to have both shrunk and reverted back to "ovary mode."  You guys are going to need to spoon-feed me rigging 101 soon.  (well, maybe not so soon, come to think of it...)

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, Will Ferris said:

Where on earth did you come up with the egg?

Don't remember exactly, but came across it somewhere.  Think " rotten egg smell "...  Has to do with outgassing sulfur compounds.

 

If I were going to patina a ( model  ) ship's bottom, I would enclose it in an upside down box or something similar, the more airtight the better, and have several chopped boiled eggs in there with it.  Just a few hours should do it.

 

Not as messy as having to brush something on, then wipe it off.

[Will Ferris]

Okay, So now that the upper gun deck "subfloor" is glued, it's on to the planking.

(The blue stuff is Bondo - I had a low spot I didn't see until after the glue dried.)

 

I tested a mix of 1 pad of 000 steel wool completely dissolved in 1 liter white vinegar on a single maple plank supplied with the kit.  Two dips seemed to get me the weathered grey I wanted.  

Per the manual, I cut a pile of planks to 85mm and started rubbing the edges with a pencil to simulate caulking. (Found this tip in numerous places on the forums)

After getting into it a bit, I have identified some problems with this method of caulking:

• I tried laying out my deck planking on a piece of upturned painter's tape before installation.  All of it is pretty heavily smudged.  I'm hoping that my vinegar-wool mix will take care of this. I read somewhere else that sanding just seems to make it worse. (Anyone just try an eraser? -It is indeed pencil...)

• This seems to be a neurotically tedious process. 10-12 hours to "caulk" planking enough to cover two pieces of painter's tape each 2 inches wide by 30 inches long.
• Finger food is out of the question; I also read somewhere that the average human unconsciously touches their face an average of 23 times an hour.  This must be true as I now look like I dropped acid before visiting the cosmetics counter.

 

I'm not planning to simulate nails here as I do not readily see nails in any of the Victory photos I found on the web.

I really appreciate everyone's input. - Especially when you see me making a mistake!

Is anyone aware of another way of simulating/laying out/installing the deck planking?

 

Has anyone tried mixing graphite powder with glue and then individually squeezing the planks into place in such a way so that the glue extrudes a little bit up through the cracks for example?  Is there a faster way?

[Gregory]

Sounds messy..

 

 

A pencil along the edge after the plank is in place makes for a good effect and is easy to do..

[LucienL]

To get rid of the smudging, I’ve found that a good way is to use a shard of glass. Go out and smash a glass jar with a hammer and use one of the shards to scrape your deck. It makes it very clean without destroying the grain of the wood or taking off the caulking.

 

An eraser could just make the smudging worse, it doesn’t work great on wood. You could also try methylated spirits or acetone.

Edited April 13, 2021 by LucienL

[Will Ferris]

Oh.  After they're in place.  - Thank you Greg.

Lucien, I'll try your glass trick. - Thank you as well!

[Keith Black]

I'd scrape the planks with a razor blade before I'd use a piece of broken glass due to the unevenness of the edge. Maybe glass breaks different down under than it does here in the colonies? 

[tedrobinson2000]

Hi Will,

 

Here's how I did it for my Victory:

Cut planks to length, sandwich about 20 of them together between stiffening pieces and clamp together. Lightly spray paint edges and ends with flat black.  Remove from stack and lightly sand edges and faces to remove overspray and to lighten the dark paint. I made a jig that holds the individual planks, and two sliding templates (one for the end pattern, and another for the middle pattern of trunnels).  Use a small pencil to simulate the trunnels (I didn't want them too dark).

 

After gluing in place, sometimes the planks are uneven in height.  I broke off the last couple of inches of an old mill bastard file and epoxied a small handle to it (see last photo).  This is used as a small plane to even out the tops of the planks after installation.  Some trunnels may need to be redone after planing.

 

Regards, Ted

 

[Gregory]

20 minutes ago, Will Ferris said:

Oh.  After they're in place.  - Thank you Greg.

If it wasn't clear, I was referring to one plank at a time ; before laying the next plank..

 

[Will Ferris]

Thank you both for such a clear explanation.  The photos are a big help.  I really appreciate it!

Greg - Thanks for the clarification.  I thought you meant after you had them all installed.

 

 

[Robp1025]

Looks interesting so I'm gonna pull a chair up and watch how this progresses. I'm wanting to eventually do a victory but A: surely don't have the financial ability to get it B: my Beagle build is my first ship and I like to take steps not leaps lol.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Maliba1025

[LucienL]

6 hours ago, Keith Black said:

I'd scrape the planks with a razor blade before I'd use a piece of broken glass due to the unevenness of the edge. Maybe glass breaks different down under than it does here in the colonies? 

Hahaha, no, I’m sure it breaks the same way. I just found the glass to be more effective if you can get a shard with a decent edge. I did try with a razor blade, but didn’t get the same results. Maybe my blade was too blunt, it does need to be quite sharp to work and smashing some glass gives you lots of cheap little disposable blades.

[Keith Black]

5 hours ago, LucienL said:

I just found the glass to be more effective if you can get a shard with a decent edge. I did try with a razor blade, but didn’t get the same results. Maybe my blade was too blunt

 That's how you Aussies come by your rugged good looks, ye be shavin' with broken glass! 

[Will Ferris]

Maliba - Thank you sir! I'm planning on posting all of my mistakes (brain-dead or otherwise.) with photos. - Just had another one this morning; I planked over the foremast hole in the upper gun deck thinking I could easily find it later. (Nope!)

Lucien & Keith - It sounds like both glass and razor have their merits. As it is, I found that the painter's tape itself removed a lot of the smudged graphite. (There's still enough left to warrant a good scraping though.)  I have heard that the virtues of neither wife nor daughter are safe with a jar-glass shaven Aussie around.

[tedrobinson2000]

Hi Will,

 

I did no aging or patina on my hull plates, they will just age nicely by themselves if you leave them alone. I glued mine on with (gasp!!) CA gel, using 3 or 4 small dabs/plate using a toothpick.  I'm in the process of uploading a bunch of old photos of my Vic, I'll add some of the plating sometime soon.... take an occasional look at my log and you can look at the results and judge for yourself. One trick that I learned is to carefully mark the waterline before starting.  Begin at the keel, working your way up to the WL.  When you get to the waterline, overlap it with the plates - then run a piece of tape along the waterline and trim the copper with a sharp Exacto knife.  It will leave a nice clean line, the objection being that the trimmed plates will no longer have the nail marks along their top edge.

 

 I agree with others that you should test the application on a test piece, but you should be OK.. just make sure that the hull surface is clean and dry, and don't use up many plates in the testing process; I only had a few dozen left over after the plating job.  Remember that the rudder needs plating as well.

 

Ted.

[tedrobinson2000]

Here are a couple of before and after pictures of the plated hull.  The first was when I added the plates in October 2010, the second shot id how it looks today with natural aged patina.

[Will Ferris]

Ted, about your hull plating job:

OOOooohhh!!!

 

...But I'm actually looking for a patina about 5-6 years: 

I'm also extremely interested in your sails. - They look Incredible! 

Where did you find plans for them? 

Are you going "full sail?"

Have you "weathered" them at all?