Waxing modell rope thread

[MESSIS]

Waxing or not waxing the thread? Waxing ofcourse offers a better standing of the rope and an easier binding. But wax brings dust on the rope, makes the texture of good quality model rope to look dull and flat....  and lastly there is always the danger of acidity on the long term.

 

So am very sceptical if is better not to use wax. And if use wax am not sure which kind of wax is better. Normal candle wax oris it better to use the nice soft furniture bee wax?

Edited April 10, 2021 by MESSIS

[Chuck Seiler]

To wax or not to wax is an interesting area of discussion.  If you DO decide to wax, I would recommend against using beeswax.  Too acid.  I use conservator's wax which is acid free.  Below is what I use, but there are many kinds.

 

[MESSIS]

@Chuck Seiler thank you Chuck. Do you do something else after applying the wax, flame or any other heatting, or is the product you suggested, which I can get easily from amazon uk,  soft enough so as not to need any further handling?

[thibaultron]

That wax is also excellent for applying to the metal working surfaces, of your wood working tools.\ (table saw tables, scroll saw tables, etc.). It protects them from rust, and does not transfer to the wood, after drying.

[MESSIS]

@thibaultron thank you.

[Chuck Seiler]

12 hours ago, MESSIS said:

@Chuck Seiler thank you Chuck. Do you do something else after applying the wax,

I just run the line thru my thumb and forefinger 3 o4 4 times to work the wax into the material.

[Jaager]

There was a time when a shammy / chamois cloth was suggested.

[turangi]

Another vote for Renaissance Wax. Apply it it to rope and draw the rope through the fingers to create a bit of friction. I have also used it for years on wood, metal, paper and cardboard also with no ill effects. It is a favorite of museum conservators due to it's neutral PH and longevity. A bit expensive but a small container will probably last a lifetime.  https://www.talasonline.com/Renaissance-Wax

Edited April 11, 2021 by turangi

[tlevine]

A few minutes in the oven (250F) melts the wax into the rope.  Loosely loop it on a paper towel that has been placed on a pre-heated sheet pan.  

[glbarlow]

Just pull it through a stick of bees wax. One stick will last a life time of model building.  It eliminates fuzz and helps the rope hang better. It’s all you need, I’ve used it for over a decade without issue.  

Edited April 11, 2021 by glbarlow

[Chuck Seiler]

Doesn't beeswax have some acidity?

[allanyed]

From the American Bee Journal:

Chemical composition
As beeswax is the primary construction material of the beehive, its chemical composition is integral to how the hive functions. This same material, the storage location of food resources and developing brood, must be relatively non-reactive, so beeswax’s neutral pH (7) suits the need perfectly. A product of organic processes, this product is created from carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen—three elements taken from the honey and nectar the bees collect, which are arranged into long carbon chains of fatty acid esters and aliphatic alcohols. These compounds and their ratios vary from species to species, but retain similar chemical properties including a low melting point which, from a human perspective, makes it very useful for sculpting and shaping once it has been harvested and cleaned.

[MESSIS]

@allanyed great! So I gues it can be ph7 or it can also not be. As said: "the compounds and their ratios vary from species to species,".

 

So with the micro-chrystalline wax am on the safe side.

[bartley]

When the reference says  "compounds and their ratios vary from species to species",    this does  not mean that the pH varies.  The compound present are called "esters".  These are common components of many naturally occuring vegetable oils and animal fats.

It is difficult to explain to a non chemist what these compounds are but I will try. They consist of two long chains consisting of only carbon and hydrogen - hydrocarbons.  These are separated by an oxygen containing group.  Each species actually contains a mixture of these esters in which the length of the carbon chains varies.  Now in different species The way this variation occurs is different if this makes sense.  For example a common chain length in vegetable oils is 18 carbons  (called C-18 for short).  So one species may have 80% C-18 and 20% C-16 another species might have 50% C-18, 40% C-16 and 10% C-14. So its a kind of variation of a variation! But the pH could be the same for both species.

 

John

 

These ester

Edited April 11, 2021 by bartley

[MESSIS]

Ok John, thank you for clarifying this to me. Its the hydrogen, carbon and oxygen bondings that are varying, the ph not. Still why some people still talk of the acidity that the bee wax may on a long time term damage the threads? That means that some times we get ph values under 7, or even slightly under 7, but still a 6.4 or even a 6.8 ph can on a long time basis damage the cotton thread I suppose.

 

Christos

Edited April 11, 2021 by MESSIS

[bartley]

Yes, Christos, I think that is probably correct.  Asmall variation from 7 still leads to a small excess of acid and slowly over time damage can occur.  another example of this is in PVA. Tightbond for example has a pH of about 2.5! we should not be using this on rigging.  Craft PVA or bookbinders PVA is said to be "neutral" but is it pH 7? Probably not but better than Tightbond!

 

John

[allanyed]

Good information John,

I am finding this to be a rather interesting and informative discussion, thanks guys.

So will the low pH of PVA, including Titebond at 4 (according to several additional sources) or Elmer's white PVA  with a pH of 5, destroy the rigging, or even the   wood that we glue together, over time?   Maybe it's time to go back to hide glue with a pH of 6.7-7.4, close to, or right at neutral  😁   

[bartley]

Allan, 

 

I certainly don't think its a good idea on rigging.  The ropes are very thin and the glue will penetrate a way as well.  Interesting point with regard to timber though.  The layer of glue is usually quite thin compared to the bulk of the timber so maybe its OK.  There is a guy on this site who is a conservator.  Maybe he will give an opinion.

 

John

[MESSIS]

Very interesting gentlemen! The easiest thing to do  is then: "Go safe. Dont put your build in any danger. So dont use bee wax. Go for micro-chrystalline... " 

 

After reading what I have just wrote, makes me think... I could open an advertising agency lol 😆

Edited April 11, 2021 by MESSIS

[allanyed]

For securing seizings, knots, splices, etc. perhaps shellac (pH 7 to 7.3) is the better way to go.  

 

[bartley]

On 4/12/2021 at 9:01 PM, allanyed said:

For securing seizings, knots, splices, etc. perhaps shellac (pH 7 to 7.3) is the better way to go.  

 

Yes Allan,  I use shellac a lot as well. 

 

But this pH scale is not easy to get your head around.  It is common to think that the difference between pH 6 and pH 5 is "not much - its only 1 in 5 or 20 %"  but the scale is logarithmic.   This means that when we go from pH 6 to 5 the acid concentration goes up by a factor of 10 and if we go to 4 i tgoes  up by a factor of 100.  It also means that going from6 to 6.2, the acid concentration doubles!  The message is that a small difference is significant.  It is also not so easy to measure particularly close to neutrality  and for things that are not soluble in water, so some quoted figures may be questionable.  Confusing, I know but the closer to neutrality the better.

 

John

[Bob Cleek]

With the disclaimer that I'm no chemist at all (My lab partner and I passed chem in high school by building a still and distilling the alcohol from cheap wine and passing it around the class so everybody could have a taste. The teacher was a bit of a lush and loved it!)...

 

Decent models should always be cased, but cases need a bit of ventilation so the air circulates some because whatever acids that are in the materials will otherwise collect and concentrate in the atmosphere of the case. I'm not sure how this happens, actually, but as I understand it, the less acid in a model's material, particularly a cased model, the better. I avoid acid like... well... acid.

[Oldsalt1950]

Interesting discussion, but I think you are looking at the wrong picture. Acidity or lack of it, i.e., going either side of Ph7 which is neutral will invite some kind of degradation. You also need to add in the factors of airborne pollutants. Then factor in the time period that it takes before any noticeable effects become seen. It takes a long time for this to occur. Everything we use to construct our models off gases. It is just how things work. What these gases are and how they affect the materials we use to construct our models is an unknown, and we really need not concern ourselves over it. The reason a case for our finished models should not be airtight is like a house, some circulation is required. Without it certain gases build up and the air also become stale and retains unwanted odors. Use whatever wax product you wish, it all evens out in the end, and eliminates those fuzzies .

[allanyed]

Most well made rope these days lack the fuzzies.   Syren and a number of others make rope that essentially have no fuzziness to the naked eye.   Waxing is really not needed in these cases.   Some kits tend to include thread rather than rope and it can be very fuzzy.  Rather than wax it, it might be a better idea to put it in the sewing basket for later use top mend a shirt or pair of pants and buy or make miniature rope for the model.  

Allan

 

[Oldsalt1950]

Allanyed, very true. One could also use polyester as that is another option. What I was getting at is no one really looks at the totality of what is used to construct our models and how the various components interact and can cause degradation. Wood has a PH and off gases, glues have a Ph and off gas, paint, varnish, shellac, poly all have a Ph and off gas. It all contributes to the issue we have with preserving what we've built. Unfortunately, to run the tests to see what is really causing the issue is cost prohibitive for what is deemed a hobby.

Jim

[Peanut6]

So let's say that some day I finally finish my Jolly Boat and I've used bee's wax on my rigging lines.  It sits in its ventilated display case on a shelf for all to see (but don't look at the rudder because I really messed that up).  When can I expect to see the affects of acidity damage to my rigging because I used bee's wax on the line?

 

My research very strongly leads me to believe that the discussion of "which is better/safer - microcrystalline wax or bee's wax" is a moot point.  The reason I say this is based upon the following reasons and/or snippits I found.  And most importantly you need to understand that I mean no disrespect in any way, shape or form, towards anyone who disagrees with me.

 

First I looked up what exactly is microcrystalline wax and I found this:

 

"In the 1950s the British Museum, through their research department developed a product known throughout the industry as microcrystalline wax. It is a petroleum derivative that is different to paraffin wax by having very much smaller crystal structure, higher melting point and is pH neutral.

Before this invention natural waxes like bees wax or carnauba wax were used, sometimes blended with paraffin, until it was discovered that these were mildly acidic - enough to cause problems over time."

 

Second I looked at a handfull of microcrystalline wax products.  They all state/advertise their product using phrases like "ph neutral" or "ph balanced" or "acid free".

 

Next I looked up what do those phrases mean and found this:

 

"The pH scale goes from 1 to 14 with 7 being neutral. Anything below 7 is considered to be acidic. Anything above 7 is considered to be alkaline. Because it is a logarithmic scale, each number is 10 times more powerful or less powerful than the next number."

 

Finally I found the exact same reference that Allenyed cited above.

 

So now I follow the trail of bread crumbs down the rabbit hole to come up with why I think this is moot point.  I'll bet the variance of bees wax between species is at such a microscopic level that it is negligible at best.  Kind'a like making a cake.  One baker adds 1 cup of flour to his milk and sugar,  the other baker adds two 1/2 cups of flour to the same amout of milk and sugar.  Are the cakes different because of flour increments measured?  Regardless of the bee species producer, it all contains the same elements to be bees wax, and bees wax is bees wax.  Pure bees wax has a scientifically agreed upon to have a ph level of 7.0.  I believe the answer to the question of why the waxes used, prior to the British Museum's development of microcrystalline wax, were mildly acid is contained with that very same sentence, ". . .  natural waxes like bees wax or carnauba wax were used, sometimes blended with paraffin, until it was discovered that these were mildly acidic - enough to cause problems over time."   Bees wax alone (ph 7.0) is neutral, carnauba wax alone (ph 5.0-6.0) is slightly acidic and paraffin alone (7.0) is neutral.  Blending paraffin (ph 7.0) with carnauba (5.0-6.0) makes that solution slighly less acidic than carnauba wax alone and bees wax mixed with paraffin is still neutral.  As I see it, you can use the organic, naturally produced product of pure bees wax or the more expensive, man made petroleum derivitive product of microcrystalline wax and get the same long term results/protection with either one you choose.

 

And again I want to state that most importantly you need to understand that I mean no disrespect in any way, shape or form, towards anyone who disagrees with me.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Peanut6
typo

[allanyed]

43 minutes ago, Peanut6 said:

(but don't look at the rudder because I really messed that up). 

That got a very loud LOL from me.   

 

Jim,

Off gassing etc.....maybe valid points, maybe not so much, I have no clue.  But, I don't think we will know the effects  for a few hundred years based on the longevity so far of the contemporary models we see at Preble Hall, RMG. Paris, and on and on.  If one of my models lasts half as long as these contemporary models, let the gas flow.  Our great-great-great-grandkids can post here on MSW how our models are holding up to bees wax, CA, PVA, various types wood, etc.  I only have 45 years evidence but so far, so good! 

 

Allan

[Dave_E]

I have to agree with Mark… we’ll be long off the earth and our efforts in the hobby will last 2-3 generations (if they’re not destroyed by any number of reasons). However, your research was good knowledge and I’m pretty sure you enjoyed the trip. 👍😀