The San Marco mosaic ship c. 1150 by Louie da fly - 1:75

[Bryan Woods]

If you would like to look on the bright side, your wording was easy for me to understand and really helpful in my long journey of understanding and learning this great hobby:-) So thank you!

[Ferrus Manus]

17 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

(don't get a swelled head, though, mate! ). 

Ha!! My goal is to help, always. I need more knowledge, though. At least enough so that my answers can be more than one line. Hey, that might be a good job for you!

[Ferrus Manus]

17 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

I found that I've rather painted myself into a corner without realising it.

What you could probably do is have the upper wales terminate somewhere forward of the sternpost. Then, you would be able to complete the planking without using drop planks. Check out this example:

[Ferrus Manus]

This is probably from about 300 years later, but the general idea stands. 

[Louie da fly]

Thanks for the suggestion, but the main thing is that in future builds I keep in mind the effect of the wales' location on the planking so I don't make the same mistake again.

 

Too late for this model - there's no way I'd be prepared to undo all I've done and start again. This is a "for future reference" issue.

 

Steven

[Louie da fly]

More planking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steven

Edited November 22, 2023 by Louie da fly

[BANYAN]

Coming on very nicely Steven.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

Planking:

 

Only the top row of planks still to do:

Adding a stealer to the bow, which curves up rather dramatically. Treenails made of whatever scrap wood that came to hand.

And filling the gap on the starboard side.

But I discovered the sheer on the larboard gunwale was not correct, so I had to undo the glue and cut the treenails to move it down into a curve that worked better with the top planking:

Ah, that's more like it . . .

Planking complete on port side (old Goon show joke: Ned Seagoon, on board P & O steamer: "Purser, where's the rest room?" Purser: "Port Side". Neddy: "Port Said??? I can't wait that long!"

Antepenultimate plank:

Penultimate plank:

AAAAAND - Planking complete!

Aftercastle and masts dry fitted: (sorry about the picture quality) 

Steven

[Cathead]

Congratulations, that looks great!

[Glen McGuire]

7 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

so I had to undo the glue and cut the treenails to move it down into a curve that worked better with the top planking:

Nice recovery.  And a really fine job of planking.

[druxey]

Looks very authentic, Steven!

[Louie da fly]

Hull sanded, gaps filled. She's looking very smooth and nice.

 

I've been working on the curved 'brace'(?) at the stempost, as shown on this mosaic. Once that's on I can paint the hull (black, to imitate pitch).

This thing presumably curves in three dimensions. My idea was to make 2-dimensional curve on a flat piece of wood following the shape in the mosaic, and curve in the 3rd dimension by heating and bending. Here is the evolution of my prototype - trial and error. I made two pieces, one for each side of the ship, glued together so they would be identical, and then separated.

But I got a surprise - every time I tried a prototype out against the hull I discovered I had too much curve - until I realised this thing must have been made from a straight piece of wood and the curve developed from bending it.

Waterways added. I'm thinking of adding scuppers. I have some very small diameter brass pipe which would probably do the job.

I've been considering fitting out the owners' cabin below the poop deck with furniture - table, hanging cots, storage chest. Trouble is, unless you look directly down the stairwell from the poop deck you can't see anything anyway. That staircase down from the cabin is to the bilge or orlop. It's very nice, but it won't be visible when the poop deck is in place, so it'd be a bit pointless to add anything else - except out of masochism.

And I've been working on the windlass.

That's all for now.

 

Steven

 

 

[Glen McGuire]

2 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

so it'd be a bit pointless to add anything else - except out of masochism.

So true!  But how many times do we do it anyway!!  

 

 

2 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

She's looking very smooth and nice.

Indeed she does!  Excellent work.

 

[Louie da fly]

So here's the "bow brace" (see my previous post). Very complex 3-dimensional curve, bent using soaking in water plus my trusty soldering iron. A bit of charring, but as it's going to be painted black it really doesn't matter.

 

 

I'm actually very happy with this - I've come a long way in heat bending since my first attempts on the dromon model about 7 years ago. The two sides are virtually identical mirror images of each other, and look a lot like the original mosaic.

 

I have no idea if this is really what that thing looked like, but it seems to work for me.

 

And here's the windlass with holes cut and ready to install.

Steven

[woodrat]

The open area contained by the "brace" probably obviates the need for a hawse hole (not seen on the mosaic), do you think?

There is a bitt here which would serve. The mosaic also suggests that the "brace" and the curved stempost is rabbeted. Does this suggest that at times this area might be planked in as an anti splash cover?🤔

Dick

Edited December 9, 2023 by woodrat

[BANYAN]

Nice job on those braces Steven, they came up a treat - they look very symmetrical.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

Thanks, Pat. I'm pretty chuffed with how they came out, but . . . see below.

 

Dick, I haven't seen hawse holes in any representations earlier than the 14th century. They may just not have been invented yet. But certainly the bitt in that opening would probably be doing the same job, even if not quite so efficiently. I agree about rabbeting the joints. Much better. And though the joint was probably nailed, my idea was to fix each join with a treenail. Regarding the possibility of an anti-splash cover, well, could be. But I'll go with the way it's presented in the mosaic. I'm doing enough speculation as it is without adding more.

 

Now for the bad news - after a period of existential angst, soul-searching and questioning the meaning of existence I came to the conclusion that those braces just didn't look right. I can't see what purpose those exaggeratedly complex curves would serve, why any shipwright in his right mind would go to all the trouble of making them and why any skipper in his right mind would ask for them. Yes, they are a possible interpretation of the mosaic, but not a likely one. I think Occam's razor - the idea that the simplest solution to a problem is probably the correct one - applies here.

 

After some discussions with and suggestions from Woodrat (thanks, mate!) I've re-considered the braces and made them simpler. Still a 3-dimensional curve, but more logical. But first I revisited the mosaic and decided the stempost was much more curved, and wider, than the original picture shows.

  

So I decided to trim it down to be closer to the one in the picture. Note the pencil line in the photo above. Even that wasn't quite right, so I didn't follow it exactly.

 

Then I put in the rabbets in the gunwales to take the braces.

  

And corresponding rabbets in the top of the stempost to take the other end of the braces. (I later changed the angle of the rabbets so everything fitted as smoothly as possible - a bit of trial and error involved in getting it quite right.)

Here are the new braces. Much simpler, and they carry the curve of the gunwale up smoothly to the stempost.

 

 

A tiny bit of tidying to do, but I'm much happier with this version.

 

Steven

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Louie da fly

[Glen McGuire]

That had to be a gut wrenching decision to scrap those braces after the superb job you did with their complex curvature.  But your remodeled ones look great.  Very fine work, Steven.

[Louie da fly]

Yes it was, rather. They were way cool. But I still have the warm fuzzy feeling of having made them successfully, plus the satisfaction of making something more  appropriate - and making it just as successfully, and the evidence that my skills have improved to such a degree that I can take something like that on with the confidence that I'd get it right.

[Louie da fly]

And painted black to represent waterproofing with pitch. It's all a bit monotone now - I'm thinking of perhaps doing a bit of weathering down the track to add a bit of interest. I haven't weathered a model before, so I'll have to do some research before I start.

 

Steven

[Thukydides]

2 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

It's all a bit monotone now - I'm thinking of perhaps doing a bit of weathering down the track to add a bit of interest.

Alternatively if you want to go for more of a simpler more artistic look you could consider using edge highlights to pick out the detail. Use a medium grey on the upper edges and a slightly darker one on the lower edges. You could also consider glazing in gradients, but that is a slightly more complicated process as getting the light placement right takes a bit of practice.

[Baker]

Have you ever thought about a light "sanding" with some Scotch Brite?

(the little sponge you use to wash dishes)

[woodrat]

I agree with Baker. That black could be toned down with a light buffing, Here are some bangladeshi boats to show effects of wear on pitch,

Dick

[Mark Pearse]

Hello Steven

 

What did you paint it with? I think it looks very good.

[Louie da fly]

Well, I dry fitted the stuff that's already made but not ready to be fitted, just to get an idea of how it's going to look..

 

And I tried a bit of mild weathering by sanding lightly with fine grade sandpaper in places where I think there'd be a bit of wear. Didn't turn out too badly at all. Encourages me to go a little further (without pushing it too hard - I don't want to mess it up).

Mark, that's two coats of standard cheapo acrylic from a school-style set for doing pictures with. 

 

Steven

 

 

[Baker]

19 minutes ago, Louie da fly said:

Encourages me to go a little further

Looks good.

I would give it a try with the Scotchbrite sponge. this is smoother and softer than sandpaper.

Best is to "practice" on a waste piece first

[knightyo]

8 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

Mark, that's two coats of standard cheapo acrylic from a school-style set for doing pictures with. 

 

That's actually perfect.  If you decide that you've sanded too much off, it's easy to reapply.   I applied/removed acrylic to the hull of my Nina for a long, long time until I finally ended up with the look that I liked (applied different wash "layers" with slightly different colors as well. You might be able to get a pretty nice effect by applying washes of greys/greens/browns, showing not only the standard wear of the black, but also the effects of a boat that has been in the water with sea life).  As Baker mentioned, it would probably be best to practice on scraps first.  It's all your personal choice, however. The model is looking great!

 

Alan

[Ferrus Manus]

One question: will you plank between the cap rail, stempost, and stem supports? 

[Louie da fly]

Thanks everybody for the help and suggestions, and in particular thanks Woodrat for the photos of vessels with weathered pitch. I think I removed just the amount of paint I needed to on my first run-through. I really don't want to do any more. But I'm thinking seriously of adding greenish below the waterline for weed, and discoloration where water would run down the hull fairly often - such as where the anchors sit, scuppers etc. And weather the anchors when I get to that stage. I suppose I'll also have to weather the aftercastle (I think the mosaic shows it as bare wood, probably pine) with light greys etc as well to continue the theme. Interesting times ahead!

 

4 hours ago, Ferrus Manus said:

One question: will you plank between the cap rail, stempost, and stem supports? 

No - it's not shown that way in the mosaic so I won't be doing it.

 

Steven

[Louie da fly]

Some updates: 

Making a stand for the ship out of walnut wood.

I'm also re-making the stand for my Winchelsea nef - I've never been happy with the old one. The supports are made but need smoothing off. The joining beam is re-used from the old stand. Once finished I'll post it on the nef build log.

And here are the yards for the three masts.

Steven