US Brig Syren by Augie - FINISHED - Model Shipways - 1:64

[DSiemens]

Would the cannons rope be tighter and would that stop the recoil?  I imagine even with the lines down at deck level you still wouldn't want the cannons rolling over them especially while being trailed by an enemy ship which those cannons would be firing at.

 

Also maybe higher is better since it looks as though the cannons may recoil under the lines.   

Edited April 16, 2013 by DSiemens

[themadchemist]

That what I was thinking. A taller rudder shaft or an upsweep on the tiller and blocking higher on the wales would move the lines over the cannon recoil.

[themadchemist]

Hey wait - I hope I'm not ruining the fun by talking ships.

 

...lets see did I ever tell you about the time on the kill floor when the bull got out .....  even more graphic then Andy's well worded Honey truck description... and I never new Canda has 2 groundhogs to the US's 1. Wow, my new factoid of the day.

[augie]

Appreciate all the interest and comments.  Back on the old MSW 1.0, Chuck had his prototype build log......all 148 pages.  There were several pages of discussion on the gun placement and the tiller lines.  Suffice to say there were mixed opinions, Chuck did it this way and I followed his lead.

 

Keith-  yes, the  blocks are stropped to eyebolts on the bulwarks and the wheel works.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Augie

[mtaylor]

Augie... I finally caught up.    The only thing I say about groundhog is that in some parts that means "sausage"....

 

The tiller ropes are controversial to say the least.  As I recall, the Niagara builders have the same issue.   Do it your way since it can't be proven one way or the other.  It's possible the tiller ropes were dropped if the stern chasers needed to be used.  But since these were generally useless anyway it's probable the cannon weren't there and the two rearmost were moved there when needed... or... hmm.. or what?   Just doesn't make sense to have two cannon that are basically useless..  

[themadchemist]

Thats what I thought, thanks Augie.

 

One can engineer a model to pieces are far as I see it. I'm more into will it work and does it look ok. and I have no cannons to worry about. I'm arming the Swift with potato guns, fired using hair spray. Hey hasn't that been discussed? Believe me its explosive, I did potato gun experiment in Physic Lab. The bigger gun would cover a football field distance with a 2 seconds of Final Net...

[themadchemist]

Possibly the wheel was disconnected in battle and the tiller was manned, getting the line out of the way would be and issue though. They didn't use carabiner clips back then of any type did they. Ive seen some pretty amazing locks of that period so you'd think they could rig a quick disconnect to the tiller ropes.

[themadchemist]

Another reason to disable rope during battle would be so the powder monkeys were'nt jump over or crawling under ropes in the heat of battle.

just a thought.

[augie]

Augie... I finally caught up.    The only thing I say about groundhog is that in some parts that means "sausage"....

 

The tiller ropes are controversial to say the least.  As I recall, the Niagara builders have the same issue.   Do it your way since it can't be proven one way or the other.  It's possible the tiller ropes were dropped if the stern chasers needed to be used.  But since these were generally useless anyway it's probable the cannon weren't there and the two rearmost were moved there when needed... or... hmm.. or what?   Just doesn't make sense to have two cannon that are basically useless..  

Turns out you're right about useless cannon Mark.  If the account I've read is correct, Syren had the unfortunate luck of running into HMS Medway, a 60 gunner.  Discretion being the better part of valor, she turned tail and ran.  Now we all know displacement hull speed is a a function of water line length so, in an attempt to gain more speed Syren lightened ship by throwing everything overboard ......I assume this included the guns.  No luck.....she was captured.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Augie

[themadchemist]

Thats twice now you've mentioned Discetion capturing Syren if I recall correctly... do I smell a next build possiblity...

[mtaylor]

One thing we do have to remember... the men who built and manned them were practical.  They might have stern chaser and bow chaser ports but since those were seldom used, they probably wouldn't have gone to the expense of putting cannon there.  A look at other ships with those seems to bear that out.

 

As for having a bad day... meeting a 74 gunner in a brig would be one. 

[Sjors]

Daniel,

 

I think that a little fun keeps the forum alive but you also have to know when to stop.

It is still a builders forum…...

That's why I love this forum.

We don't know each other then only by words.

But there is a kind of chemistry between all of us.

And yes, sometimes there is a side kick but the main thing will be building.

When we are keeping that in mind. I think that MSW is going bigger then any other site!

Augie, your build log is now yours again ( for the time being  )

Now back to the shipyard.

 

 

[schooner]

Here's another option for the tiller rope problem.

The attached photo is of the Syren model at the US Naval Academy Museum. I seem to recall that Chuck mentioned this model as weighing in his decision to select the Syren to develop his own model. Anyway, in case this photo doesn't post clear enough to see, it shows the tiller as LONGER but not necessarily higher, giving the aft guns sufficient recoil room, although it pushes the end of the tiller very close to the steering wheel. It also uses 3 blocks on each side - one on the end of the tiller, one on the upper bulwark aft of the end of the tiller and one the upper bulwark

forward of the end of the tiller. The steering ropes are secured to the end of the tiller, run thru the aft block, thru the tiller block, thru the forward block and then to the wheel creating an X pattern when looking at the finished product port and starboard. Hope this helps

Tim

P.S. If you click on the photo it expands a lot

 

Edited April 16, 2013 by schooner

[augie]

Thanks Tim.  Yes, I remember this photo.  I'll mention 2 things to close this out.  The binnacle, which is right in front of the wheel on my model, is not fixed permanently to the deck.  It is lashed down with the intent of removing it for action.  Also, notice on the model you've pictured, there is no binnacle and the wheel is more forward toward the hatch.  So what was 100% accurate will always be open to question.  There is a similar issue with the capstan bars as they extend well over the hatch coaming when deployed.  Syren was not all that large a ship and, as we all know, the military (even to this day) does not necessarily design war machines with human convenience in mind.

 

OK, good discussion.  Thanks to all who chimed in.

 

(Sjors, there's snow to be shoveled and yards of yards to rig).

[augie]

Oh, 2 last thoughts.  I'm sure there was a way to quick disconnect those lines from the wheel and just use the tiller during a foray.  You'll see they are not lashed to the tiller but rather to a ring on the tiller.  That would eliminate jumping rope whilst carrying cannonballs.

 

Also Mark--- my apologies.  Medway was a 60 gunner, not a 74.  I corrected that last nite.  Either way, I myself probably would have jumped overboard.

[popeye the sailor]

I'm sure there are many accounts.   we will never know what was done in the heat of battle.   decisions had to be made......whether it was to drop and fix the tiller lines,  moving the aft most guns to the stern.......or if guns were even mounted there at all.   from the different accounts found in books,  to the model manufacturers adding them in to make the kit more interesting........we build as we see them.

[Shazmira]

Ooooh I just broke down and ordered this kit for my next build....love your log Augie it is similar to mine with lots of ramblings and sidetracks. Me thinks it is that banter that keeps me building and trucking along. Without it, things would just be boring and technical

Awesome build by the way. I can tell I will be referring back to this one often when I finally begin building mine

[augie]

Thanks Robbyn.  You'll enjoy this kit and Chuck's Practicum is a gem.

 

I too enjoy the banter.  It often takes me a week or more to have a bona fide update so reading about Andy's beard and Sjor's clowns is a welcome way to stay in touch.  Unfortunately, I need to report that I haven't worn a pink shirt since the summer of '77.

[Shazmira]

Hahahaha, pink is not required for friendship!

[realworkingsailor]

Congratulations on your selection for your next build! Augie is absolutly right!

I may have mentionned before, I've not built this kit, but I know the high quality of Chuck's workmanship and his practicums (I do intend to start the Conferacy next, one of his designs).

 

Enjoy!

 

Andy

[Shazmira]

I love the Confederacy...especially love the fact there would be no rigging involved lol. But that price is scary. With the Syren on sale, I really couldn't resist, and I have been talking to Chuck about her. She is just so beautiful....

[realworkingsailor]

Call me crazy... but I'm hoping that sometime in the future Chuck will find the time to develop a rigging plan and ME can create and after market "expansion" kit for her.

 

(BTW Chuck... I know you'll read this... but for the record, I'm still a couple years away from possibly being ready to rig a Confed model.. so no pressure on you at all.)

 

Andy

[themadchemist]

Hum I seem to have restarted a long ago heated discussion. I to see many differences between the Syren Tim posted (Thanks Tim) and Chucks design. It matters not to me, all I'm interested in is bashing the Swift kit and adding a wheel. There's just something about having a wheel and since its a custom, what the hey. Plus I have no cannons on the stern I was actually thinking hammock and cooler

 

Sjors is right in saying, "But there is a kind of chemistry between all of us."

That's why I love this place. If I hadn't lost my place reading this log and decided to start over so many times, I might not have gotten the wheel idea in the first place. The banter is what makes it a hobby, and if a hobby isn't fun, why bother... and nothing makes having fun better then friends that know how to not take each other too seriously.

 

A smart person once told me: It's important to work hard and play hard, intelligence is found in knowing when to do each. I have found sometimes, when lucky, working and playing coincide together as they do at MSW.

[themadchemist]

As far as Chucks designs go.

I'm still blaming him and his design of the Pinnace for causing me to purchase it (its just so dang regal)

....or maybe rather then blame I should OPP's and say I accidentially ordered it like Robbyn, Congrats Robbyn on the decision, so let me guess your finger slipped on the order button  .

Either way I have to have an excuse and a bad one is better then saying " I was weak and could not resist the pretty colors and shiny bits"

 

The real reason for the love of MS kits, IMHO, is that the MS kits have so much better instructions and design then what I've seen in lets say the AL kits, which is the limit of my experience (besides Midwest, which I also love). One of the reasons for my Swift bashing is its 4 1/2 pages of written instructions, which leave lots to the imagination, at least for me. I like being able to go on ME and get the practicum for MS builds, I snagged the Syren part on the wheel to help guide the Swift retro-fit. Its nice to see the instructions before buying the kit.

 

I'm kinda with Augie on the pink, seeing's I wear bib overalls nearly everywhere. The only pink I have is Pink Floyd, but that red on the Pinnace was definitely a selling point. Although Indigo is my favorite color, hum.....

[themadchemist]

I will say one last thing and then shut up (for now)

adding the wheel means eliminating the deckhouse which leaves a hole in my deck. I really like the companionway on the Syrene (Chucks design) compared to the open ladderway on the museum piece. How many ideas can I borrow before owing Chuck royalties for copyright infringement.

[Chuck]

Here you go guys....some contemporary examples.  Yes I used the model in the Rogers collection as my basis for rigging the tiller but you can use these also.  Here are two more contemporary models that show a similar approach.  Note: that even though the tiller is longer on the  Rogers collection model, have a look at how the tiller rigging interferes with the last carronade in its port.  After reviewing several other options,  I thought it more important to make sure the rigging for the tiller is clear of the last carronade.  On Syren and on Argus,  the configurartion wouldnt have worked without making the last carronade useless in action.

 

But yes...the two blocks on the deck below the wheel should be added.  I omitted them for two reasons.  I found a good example in the lightley model which shows it that way...I knew folks would have access to it.  The blocks supplied in the kit are huge as you know.  They would have looked so out of scale and clunky that I took the aesthetic route and omitted them.  If there were any kit builders that didnt take the time to reshape their blocks and just used the square ones supplied....it would have looked absolutely horrific.

 

The tiller is actually much too long on the Lightly model as well.  It didnt match up with Chapelle's draft for the Argus or the Syren.  I used his reconstruction for the inboard works with the help of English original drafts (raven and others) and contemporary models.  Look at how far forward Lightly placed the ship's wheel.  I saw no evidence on any other draft that this was done.  Compare it to the English models.  I also wanted to include the binnacle which Lightly had no place for since he moved the wheel so far forward.  He has it lined up with the second port as compared to the way it is shown on the English drafts and contemporary models.

[augie]

Thanks Chuck.  That should put this to bed.

[themadchemist]

Thanks Chuck for the many examples. This is just what I was looking for.

 

Cheers 

[DSiemens]

Hahahaha, pink is not required for friendship!

Good to know I don't like wearing pink.

[texxn5]

Hello Augie, things are looking good. Well, just as I got started on the Connie, my CW Morgan (MS) arrived. Kind of interrupted Running Rigging...lol...had to unpack it and drool. Hope I didn't bite off more than I can chew. Does anyone know of a "Practicum" on the Morgan? That could sure help. I'll probably be working on both ships at the same time for now or until I finish up the Connie. This being my first wood ship it appears a little intimidating. Bought it on eBay for a good price so that helps some...but, no problem, probably just going to be a slow proces...Keep up the good work, and your pictures sure help for my anticipated problems that will be coming.