HMS Victory by gil middleton - FINISHED - Caldercraft - 1:72

[gil middleton]

Thank you all for your input, and helping me decide where to go from here. What bothered me was the stark white appearance of the coiled line, rather like white nylon or white cotton rope which it certainly would not be.  As such, it becomes the center of focus rather than a coil of rope in the background.  This is where I wish I had modified the color of the line before beginning the rigging.  In fact I did experiment but was not pleased with the result.  I should have persisted using the expert advise from some of our members.

 

I'd like to use the full coils if they can be blended in with the background.  The following photos are experiments in retrograde coloring of the lines.  The problems are obvious.  Areas with C/A glue will not take up stains, if one succeeds with the coils, all other lines will have to be altered and most of all, it's a pain................    I've tried to use similar lighting in the photos, however, we all know how lights and cameras drastically alter the appearance. I'm experimenting with washes (very dilute paint) but of course masking become a daunting task.  I'll report later on the results (or lack there of).

 

Each photo of untreated line is followed by one of treated line.  The unfinished coil on the right can be used as a control.  Unfortunately, they were taken on different days. Cheers, Gil

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2014 by gil middleton

[mtaylor]

Gil,

 

If nothing works.... let it age.  If stain won't penetrate, try putting some stain in a 50-50 mix of water and white glue with a drop or two of dish detergent.  No guarantees on that, though.  If it works, you can paint all the white rigging. 

[gil middleton]

Mark,  Many thanks for the suggestion.  For me, it's new territory.  Let the experiments begin.  Cheers, Gil 

[Moonbug]

Hey Mark, interesting mix - what does the detergent do?

 

-Bug

[mtaylor]

Hey Mark, interesting mix - what does the detergent do?

 

-Bug

 

It breaks the surface tension of the liquid so that it smooths out.

[gil middleton]

In the last post, I was not satisfied with the rope coils which appeared harsh white and became the center of attention.  The line supplied by JoTika is actually a light tan, but on the model appears white, particularly in photographs.  I tried different stains but the areas treated with C/A appeared very different from the untreated lines.  Further, the staining was uneven.  The following photo was an early attempt.  Better but more work needed.

 

 

Mark was kind enough to suggest equal parts white glue and water with stain and a couple drops of detergent.  I also tried washes (very dilute paint) having used a light gray wash to tone down the rat lines at an earlier stage.  The following is the  result of testing different methods.  The real message of course is treat your lines BEFORE rigging, and the observation that none of these match Chuck's  beautiful lines.  However, this is an attempt to correct a problem.

 

Lines were wrapped around a white dowel and numbered.  On the photo, the second and third wrap from the left are controls (no staining).

 

 

Control wraps.  On the left, lines were touched with C/A (as in splices, wraps on the yards, etc.), while on the right, the line was untreated.  It's hard to understand why the line appears so white on the model.

 

 

On number 1, a mixture of equal parts white glue, water and stain (water based English Oak / Minwax) plus a couple drops of detergent.  There was a slight difference between C/A treated and non-treated threads and slightly irregular uptake of the stain, although I doubt most observers would notice.  The color has a reddish tint, but of course that's the stain.  Fruitwood would be a better option.

 

 

Number 4, though slighty blurred, was a wash (Basswood Acrylic Wash) which gave poor coverage with a major difference between C/A treated and non-treated areas. In addition there was a pinkish tint.

 

 

Number 5 used Brown Oak Detail Wash (Model Master Acrylic / Testors).  This gave a more even coverage of treated and untreated areas.  The camera gave it a brighter yellowish tint that is not present on the test stick. A second photo by a different camera gave a closer match but still missed the warmer brown. The color on the test stick, to my eye, is closest to relatively new Manila hemp.  In my years of sailing (over 70), it seems even old and worn Manila hemp retained something of a brownish gray  tint. 

 

 

Number 8 was English Oak Water based srain with a notable difference on the C/A treated area and rather uneven uptake of the stain.

 

 

My conclusions were that the Brown Oak Detail Wash gave the most realistic result followed closely with the white glue/water/stain technique (but substitute a Fruitwood stain).  However, I'll probably spend a good deal of time fussing and masking and may not post for a while.  Are we having fun yet?

Cheers, Gil

 

 

 

 

 

 

[popeye the sailor]

would it be possible to pre-treat the string beforehand at this point?

[augie]

Thanks for posting your efforts Gil.

[mtaylor]

Interesting results.  Is the pure white look due to a flash?  I've found that a flash tends to burn out some colors. Same for certain types of lighting.

 

I like your final choice and hope the rope re-work goes well.

[dafi]

The lines appearing lighter than in reality as they are superexposed in the picture as the camera takes the larger darker regions as reference. 

 

Wonderful testings!!! How does the "hanging" rope react to the paint? Does it make the fibers to stand up as wood does when wet?

 

Cheers, DAniel

[gil middleton]

Thanks guys for the helpful comments.

Popeye, As the TV add says: "You've got it."  From here on I'll pre-treat the lines.  It will be interesting being a paint, but as a wash and very dilute, it may not effect the flexibility as much.  I'll tell you later if I discover problems, flaking, etc.

Mark,  I rarely allow flash because it changes the entire color spectrum. I think it is likely as Daniel suggests, that the camera brightens the line compensating for the darker background.  Perhaps our cameras are getting too smart (Is it time for a professional photography course?)

Daniel, The effect on hanging ropes will become more apparent as I get further along.  This is all new ground for me.  I haven't noticed the wash making the fibers stand up.  In fact my early observation is the reverse.  The line looks better than the untreated line. (The third photo)

 

The following photos show the major color changes with different light.

1.   Taken with incandescent light

2.   Overcast daylight

 

The third photo to judge the effect of the paint wash on the line.

 

[Modelman]

Thank You Jerry, BWL and GFN.

[gil middleton]

Hi Modelman,  I looked for your build log but couldn't find one.  By all means, post a build log of your "Victory,"  We're all learning from each other, and for any question, there are a host of modelers more  experienced than ourselves willing to help.  Plus, one makes friends from just about everywhere.  Cheers, Gil

[popeye the sailor]

I experienced some off filterings in my pictures as well.   it depends how the light is aimed......and in what proximity I've taken the picture.  I don't use flash either.......never had to.   I have another crane light,  that I fasten to the other table,  but I dropped it when I did that stupid move {that never happened}........I also need to replace the fixture,  for the second time.   I bought one,  but when I installed it,  I think I tightened it too much......the on - off knob is very hard to turn.    enough of my lighting issues 

 

I have stained thread {rope}  and used diluted white glue to seal it with some success.   I've also done standing rigging.....using India Ink....this works pretty well too.   I have also used a polished hemp.  it is a bit stiff,  but can be fashioned with finger compression.   I do like how it looks.........looks as real as rope can be......

[AON]

What a fantastic ride this has been for me!

I have learned so much with your photos and particularly those few that had labels (tags) added into them.

Thank you very much and  BZ   Doc!

Alan

[gil middleton]

Popeye,  I also clamped a second light to the work table, which then began to fall towards the model.  Quick reflexes saved the day.  I'm much more careful in mounting lights now.   Tell me more about polished hemp.  Sounds interesting.

 

Alan,  Many thanks for the BZ. (I'm old enough to have learned it as "Baker Zebra" rather than Bravo Zulu).  I tried but could not make out the ship's badge.  As a midshipman, I trained aboard HMCS Antigonish and HMCS Sioux 1951-1954. Have you started a build log?  With your engineering skills, it should be a winner.

 

Cheers,  Gil

Edited February 2, 2014 by gil middleton

[colin bantin]

I am currently building the Jotika Victory and I am very grateful to you and all your contributors for all the help that I can get during the assembly. I have reached the stage of planking the quarter deck and I have a question about the forecastle bulwarks. All of the photos I have seen of models being built, and of the actual Victory at Portsmouth, do not show these bulwarks, yet Caldercraft (Jotika) state that the latest research show that they were in place at Trafalgar. Do you know if this is the case, and what research are they refering to? 

 

Capt'n Colin

[AON]

Gil,

My "engineering skills" may be the biggest hurdle as I find I am likely being far too anal (strict) in my thinking of my build.  I intend to do a scratch build of the first HMS Bellerophon (which happens to be the ships badge you can't recognize... but it is for the last Bellerophon... the image is a Gryphon). Presently I am in my "planning stage", attempting to purchase the plans of HMS Goliath and Elephant as they are exactly the time of the Bellerophon and record the changes from the earlier versions. This I intend to redraw in 2D/3D and make my templates.  Your assembled tutorial of the Victory will be an invaluable aid along with those kits of the Bellerophon (Vanguard) found on this site.

 

Regarding ships served on... I have a very impressive list, that is until you stop and think about it: HMCS Cornwallis, HMCS Naden, HMCS Haida, HMCS Quadra. All "stone frigates" except for the most distinquished of all which is now a floating museum.  I served (using the term extremely loosely) as a Sea Cadet (13 to 19 years old) then joined the Sea (Naval) Reserve on the Cadet Instructors List and later served as CO of #141 Royal Canadian Sea Cadet Corps Bellerophon, then the oldest corps in Canada by virtue of her Charter date (1917) having began as a Boys Naval Brigade.  She was "decommissioned" a few years ago to the displeasure of many of the old crew.

 

Politics.

 

I now seem to be rambling (as old folks do) and so once again say thank you so very much for such a wonderful diversion from my daily headaches.  It is so beautiful and fills my dreams at night.

 

Alan

Edited February 3, 2014 by AON

[popeye the sailor]

I've only done two ships with the polished hemp........they are the Nordkap and the Cux 87....I think I have them both in the gallery.  Hemp would be a hard thread to work with,  doing a ship the likes of what your doing.......but I'll bet it would be interesting    besides being stiff to work with,  it can be of uneven thickness, coming off the skein.   I've had to cut sections out because it would have been too thick to rig through a block........the sections I could salvage,  I had to be sure that there was enough to use on that particular bit of rigging.

 

hemp was used in colonial days for a wide variety of things......rope, as a form of burlap,  and even clothes.   it does have it's limitations,  rigging mistakes must be kept at a minimum.  but for all the trouble I went through to use it....I was quite satisfied with the fact that it looks like real rope.  it doesn't get any closer than this    you can find it at any craft store....it can come in different colors,  and I have found it in different thicknesses.

[gil middleton]

Colin,  I'm not much help regards the bulworks at the forecastle.  Like you, I hadn't seen recent photos or drawings showing these, but accepted JoTika's statement that they were there at Trafalgar.  On the other hand, they showed panels on the poop deck that remained after the caronades were removed, however I did not add these for appearance sake.  I look forward to following your build.

 

Alan,  I also served on a "stone frigate,"  HMCS Discovery in Vancouver, teaching Sea Cadets seamanship.  Looking forward to seeing the process on the "Bellerophon" from an engineer's viewpoint. It has to be better than my "seat of the pants" approach.

 

Popeye, I looked back at the Nordkap and Cux 87.  A wee bit less rigging than the Victory, but fun to compare.

Cheers, Gil

[popeye the sailor]

certainly,  there is a lot less rigging,  but it gives you a good idea of how it behaves in the configurations of pulley assemblies and such.

 

    to do a ship as your doing would be a feat in itself.........but it would sure look interesting     you have a beautiful build there....your rigging is top notch 

[Jerry]

Hello Gil...I hope you don't mind this question as it may interrupt the flow of your log.  I am about to start the rigging on my Victory and am trying to decide something; perhaps you can let me know what you think.  I feel it may be less time consuming to attach the shrouds to the lower masts by forming the loops first and sliding them over the lower masts rather than threading them around the masts.  In order to do this, the top masts can't be attached to the lower masts until this process is finished.  While this method seems advantageous, I do see some disadvantages.  For one, the full mast won't be plumbed until after the lower masts are shrouded.  Also the various pendants won't be in place before the shrouds are begun.  Simply put, although I believe you had all your masts fitted before your shrouds were done, do you think there is enough advantage to do this step before attaching the top masts?  I hope I haven't confused you.  Many thanks in advance and for all your wonderful photos and work.  Jerry

[gil middleton]

Hi Jerry,  You raise an interesting question, but I'm not sure  that I agree with the advantage of adding shrouds to the lower mast before completing the topmast, etc.  It was done that way at the yard and certainly at sea, but I think the advantage goes to completing the masts before rigging on a model.  First, the mast is much easier to build and align sideways and fore and aft on a work table than progressively on the ship. When the masts are placed on the ship and shrouds added, it is simple to align the topgallant masts with each other.  Threading the shrouds around the mast is quick and simple. they simply need to be seized together close to the mast, with a few turns around both shrouds.  If one is serving the shrouds where they go around the mast, seizing won't slide easily and must be done  where you want the seizing to remain. If you are not serving the shrouds, seizing can be done at a distance and then slid into place.  I do this part with a lazy susan to alternate tension on the shrouds as they are added, and a step stool so you are working in a comfortable position.

 

You may find disagreement here, but this is the way I've done three full rigged ships and it has worked for me.  Cheers,  Gil

[gil middleton]

 Trying to simulate Manila hemp or Hemp rope from around 1800 is difficult at best and I'll leave it to the historians of our group to advise which was used.  Manila Hemp (not truly a hemp since it's made from fibers of the Abaca plant) has been the favored fiber for marine cordage because of it's strength and resistance to salt water damage.  The middle fibers of the leaf stem produced colored line of the greatest strength, while the central core white fibers gave a white line of somewhat lesser strength.  The term Manila has almost become generic including Manila hemp or line used in marine cordage, but also Manila plus sisal, Manila plus jute, dyed Manila, bleached manila, Manila plus polyester, synthetic Manila, decorative manila, etc.  The color of Manila rope and hemp rope appear very similar.

 

The following photos show the variation of colors beginning with Manila hemp sold for rigging.

 

 

Additional photos of Manila line.

 

 

Storage of Abaca fiber for rope making

 

 

My attempts to simulate the color of Manila line were, I believe, a bit too dark. ( Number 5)  Adding a very light white-gray seems to have improved the appearance and added a bit of life to the rope. ( Number 6)  Equal parts, Brown Oak Wash (Model Master/Testors), Dust (Polyscale) and Universal Acrylic Thinner (Model Master/Testors).

 

 

Cheers, Gil

 

 

 

 

[Modelman]

Hi Gil,

 

Thanks for being modest, but I think your blog is superior and sufficient...

Actually, at the beginning of the process I was planning a blog, but there seemed to be so many of those on the net already.

Later I have also 'lost' most of the photographs, so it wouldn't be a proper blog anyway...

 

But please, keep up the fantastic work!

[gil middleton]

PAINTED RIGGING OR "Doing it the hard way."

 

Hopefully most of you will never need or want this technique.  You will select the desired color and pre-treat the lines before embarking on the rigging process.  Having said that, when I began rigging the cannons and running rigging, I thought that the light tan or "natural" line from JoTika would work.  However, the more I progressed, the lighter it appeared.  In incandescent light and particularly in photos, it appeared white.  Playing with white balance and color editing in the camara and computer simply introduced unwanted color hues and tints.  Finally, when adding rope coils, the "white" took center stage and to my eye was not satisfactory.

 

I've likely bored many of you with attempts to match Manila or hemp with a paint wash to paint the rigging.  Why on earth mess up a pretty good model by painting the rigging????  Is anyone that dumb????      Well......................

 

Supplied "natural" line supplied by JoTika.  C/A applied on the left, untreated on the right.  However, the rigging appeared white.

 

 

Paint wash selected after experiments.

 

 

Masking to protect the deck.

 

 

Notice on the mizzen.  Starboard rigging has been painted while the port side is untreated.

 

 

Using a hook to separate the line from the yard.  Tiny brushes used at the deadeyes.  I found it necessary to change brushed frequently for they became gummy rather quickly.

 

 

The next posts show comparisons between the "natural" lines and the painted lines.

Edited February 16, 2014 by gil middleton

[dragzz]

vary nice work u are doing keep going soon u will done 

[gil middleton]

Deadeyes

 

 

Main mast

 

 

Fore mast

 

[gil middleton]

At the bow

 

 

At the Mizzen

 

 

Lots of touch ups to go, but overall I'm pleased with the change.  At the work table in incandescent light or daylight, the ship takes on a much more realistic appearance.  Are we our worst critics?  Probably yes.  Will my grandchildren notice or care?  Probably not.   Cheers, Gil

[Jim Lad]

Gil,

 

Just catching up after not looking in for a while.  She's really looking the cat's pyjamas, mate!

 

John