HMS Bellerophon 1786 by AON – scale 1:64 – 74-gun 3rd Rate Man of War - Arrogant-Class

[Kevin Kenny]

Allan. I do not think it would matter which you do first.

[AON]

Well I believe this portion of fairing the hull has been completed... and I cleaned all the dust up in the shop.

 

I will start remarking the timber tops and gunports next week as this weekend is full of ship model club meetings (Friday, Saturday and Sunday) and our baby boy turns 40 so there will be a family gathering and spirits will be partaken of.

 

When I start I'll be measuring thrice, then checking yet again because last night I dreamt I cut a hole in the wrong place.  YIKES  😲

[michael mott]

On 3/29/2022 at 8:15 PM, garyshipwright said:

many years ago I broke up a glass from a picture frame and use the pieces to help me with all the different angle's and tight places.

Gary this is a very good way to get a lot of subtle soft curves and I can attest to it working extremely well. I used this method to finish shaping a pull saw handle made of birds eye Maple. and the edge stays sharp for a long time.

 

Getting to the final shaping must feel really great Alan. It looks good, and I like your tilting table. and the plant stands.

 

Michael

 

[druxey]

A glass scraper works well - with the other edges taped!

[AON]

I think my hands would be the only things getting taped 😱

[AON]

starting marking heights

I've got the four hawse hole locations marked (at two per side) and six gun deck gunports marked (at three per side)

I measured off the original 1:48 plan x 48 / 64 to get my scale measurement. Double checked that to my 1:64 plan.  Then marked them on the model.

 

I use a soft "preacher pencil" to mark the four corners and a flexible ruler to hold tight to the curve of the frames and connect the dots with a line.

I learnt the term "preacher " versus "farmer" pencil yesterday morning on television watching the master woodworker from Eureka California.

A preacher pencil has a fine point to mark the truth or true location.

A farmer pencil has a dull point to mark a wider line as a guide for cutting with ease allowing a bit of wander.

Both have one thing in common.... an eraser on the end!

He cracks me up.

 

Below are a couple photos of my using my height gauge.  It can also be used inboard.

[albert]

Great beautiful work AON.

[mtaylor]

Sweet work.   And love the pencil definitions.

[TBlack]

Alan's quote:

I learnt the term "preacher " versus "farmer" pencil yesterday morning on television watching the master woodworker from Eureka California.

 

OK, Alan, and if he cracks you up, perhaps you'd share with us his entertaining link.

Tom 

[AON]

The show is called The Craftsman.

His name is Eric Hollenbeck of Eureka California.

It is on DIY on the Magnolia Network, Sundays from 11am to noon Eastern Time

[ccoyle]

10 hours ago, AON said:

Eureka California

 

Ha! I lived in Eureka for two years when I was a kid.

[TBlack]

Eric is also on youtube.

TB

[AON]

Got the gun deck and upper deck gun ports marked off.

Marked off the top timber heights.

just have the forecastle and quarterdeck gunports to do.

Made the keelson pieces and dry fitted them on the floors and aft deadwood.

[TBlack]

well that all fits! Lookin' good!

Tom

[AON]

Went back to the build contract to get the proper sizes for the various gunports as a triple check.

 

Gun Deck 3'-3" wide x 2'-8" tall... except the aft most which is 3'-4" wide (I don't think anyone will notice 1" difference at 1:64 scale)

Upper Deck 2'-10" wide x 2'-8" tall.  (There will also be two in the beakhead and two in the transom at a later date)

Quarter Deck 2'-8" tall x 2'-5" wide

Forecastle 2'-8" tall x 2'-5" wide

Roundhouse The contract doesn't give dimensions but they measure 3'-0 x 3-0" on the plan

Port Cells: (Upper and lower) are said to be 7-1/2" deep (through the frame) on the gun deck and 6-1/2" deep on the upper deck, and "put in with a bill as done in the King's yards".  They do not give a height but they all measure 8".  The "bill" angles are 30°-60° and 120°.

 

So I created and printed paper templates of the three sizes that I will glue to stiff thin card stock and cut out the outline to be used for tracing.

There is an dimensioned 8" long line provided to the right to check the scale when printed.

My intention is to hold the template at each marked location and trace the shape in preparation for cutting through the frames.

 

I will need to practice this (tracing, drilling, sawing) on a dummy frame setup first to get comfortable as I am anything but comfortable with the idea at the moment.

 

gunport templates-Model.pdf

[allanyed]

You bring up a very important tool, a contract.  Whether scratch or kit, it is a great idea to look for contemporary contracts for the ship being modeled.  If built in private yards such as Bellerophon at the Edward Greaves yard, there are many available at RMG and the NA in Kew.  

 

Allan

 

[druxey]

Just remember that ports, unless located at midships, are not square! The WMISIYCMIC principle: (Why make it simple if you can make it complicated.)

[AON]

Absolutely correct.  Transposing my gunport corner locations from the original plan identifies which are skewed.  Although my templates are square I will remember this fine point.

 

Presently trimming and sanding the top timbers down to their proper heights.  All indications are that this will yet again be another long drawn out affair.

[AON]

Yesterday was a beautiful warm (28°C) sunny day so I decided to spend it sitting on the patio reading my new book: From Powder Monkey to Governor, the life of Rear Admiral Sir John Hindmarsh, RN 1785-1860, First Governor of South Australia and Lt. Governor of Heligoland.  Published by Access Press, 1995, and written by his descendant, F. Stewart Hindmarsh.   ISBN 0 949795 88 7.  Only 189 pages and I made it to page 19 before the neighbours came over to visit and I had to force myself to put the book down.

 

He entered the RN at a most irregular age of 5 years as a servant to his father, John Senior, appointed Gunner, a Warrant Officer aboard the brand new 74 gun warship named Bellerophon.  Earlier I had discovered his son, John Junior or "Jack", was at the Battle of the Glorious First of June (1794) when he was 9 years old, Cornwallis` Retreat at 10, and the Battle of the Nile as a 13 year old Midshipmen where he found himself the only officer alive on deck and so assumed command and saved the ship.  This is why I had to read the book!

 

In those first 19 pages I learnt what life was like for a "Youngster" (normally 8 to 14), where they slept (the Officers Nursery), how they were guarded at night by the Gunner and Chaplin whose cabins were nearby, and the posted guard called "the Lady of the Gunroom", what they ate (makes my stomach turn), the hours of schooling, etc.  Then they describe the "Oldsters", the midshipmen, and their place onboard.

 

It was a real eye opener... but then I read the statement "I don't know why they called them a 74 when they had 82 guns".  They list all the guns of a 74, with the addition of 8 carronades, 2 x 32 pounders on the forecastle and 6 x 18 pounders on the poop (roundhouse).

 

I`ve read a list of all the 74`s that were issued carronades and Bellerophon was not on the list... but the build contract specifies accommodations for carronades but that doesn't mean she had them...but then again at Cornwallis` Retreat (16 June 1795)  it was reported that the Bellerophon threw her carronades and shot overboard in an attempt to pick up speed and break away from the French.

 

I am beginning to believe that I need to add 8 carronades to my build!

Edited April 25, 2022 by AON

[bruce d]

From the mouths of babes ... 

Good find, must have been a 'whoa, what???' moment!

[Lieste]

The AO of 1794 establishes a set of carronades for every ship - the roll-out might have been delayed by the sheer size of the requirement for some ships (and indeed a few might have retired from active commission without ever being so armed, but the "norm" was for the carronades to be fitted for, and usually with).

Some captains didn't like the roundhouse carronades and would request their removal, but the fo'c'sle and qtr deck carronades were generally liked - having a better long range penetration and larger shot holes against close range targets than the light guns which had formerly been fitted to the superstructure.

It is a patchy data-set of which ships were rearmed and how, but the presence of some (or all) carronades in place of the light ordnance on the fo'c'sle and qtr deck is seen on some reported re-armaments during the period of service of the ships of the RN during the revolutionary and napoleonic wars (as well as a trend toward larger bore and lighter styles of guns (short 12pdr replacing 6pdr and 9pdr guns, short 18pdrs, and the new 24pdr Gover (33cwt) being seen on the upperworks (and for a few replacing nearly all guns) on ships of the line (two of these finding their way onto Constitution as her chase guns, replacing 4 carronades).

Often the reported armament of a vessel is only her "as designed" gun establishment, even when she was built after 1794 - which looks to be a nominal only armament - rather than an actual 'as fitted' one - comparison with other vessels of the same 'establishment of guns' can sometimes give a snapshot of possible alternative armament options at specific dates... and the growth of carronades in place of light guns is clearly seen, which leaves me unconvinced by the 'wrote lists' of design armament of the standard designs of ships with their nominal gun armament only for many of the ships at major actions. Not helped by 'useful' descriptions such as "augmented or replaced by various carronades during her service".

[bruce d]

Allan, please indulge me a moment. This is a perfect example of something I learned during my years as a researcher: history is not a democracy. When you find a fact that does not fit with the popular perception, don't put it to the vote. Assess it in light of all the known facts and see how it fits.

From what you have said, and also as Lieste illustrates above, the extra carronades fit. 

Unless there is a definitive contradictory statement from a reliable source, celebrate!

 

 

[AON]

Thankyou for the comments.

 

My build will represent the ship as originally launched or having first entered service (1786-1790). 

 

Reading she had carronades in 1795 does not mean they were there in 1790 or 1786 but the build contract does specify the accomodation for them.  Reading a comment suggested to be by an eyewitness that they were there is a game changer... if I read it correctly.

 

I will need to take another crack at it and let it percolate a bit.

[Lieste]

There was an AO 1779-07-16 establishing carronades of 18 and 12pdr for all classes of ships, relaxed by the end of 1779 and by 1780, the actual fitting of authorised carronades was left to the discretion of the captain, to avoid unwanted disrupti0n on the command deck, or interference with the rigging. By 1780-03-09 carronades fitted by application of the captain.
Politics caused the ordnance board to recommend against carronades, the Admiralty dragging it's heels over forwarding this "finding" to the Navy board until several months after the report date (1780-10-21, forwarded 1780-12-15)

Early evidence of the utility of the carronade in close action suggested that there was a use for them, and more experimentation was authorised as well as the optional use of carronades at the captain's request (including some fully carronade armed ships)...

1781-12-28, the Navy board recommended two 68pdr carronades for those capable of supporting them, and 42 or 32pdr carronades be allowed for smaller rates at the request of their captains.

From 1794-11-24, a new carronade establishment replaced the earlier 1779 one, with a 74 being authorised 2 32pdr and 6 18pdr in this establishment.

From 1798-03 every line of battle ship was fitted to receive carronades on the fc/qtr deck.

Nelson carried his pair of 68 pdr carronades authorised by the 1781 AO on all of his commands from 1793 on.

There is a pattern of intent, and a demonstrated flexibility in how carronades were first authorised and subsequently expanded in use. Individual details are patchy at best.
 

[mtaylor]

The last line in Lieste's last post pretty much explains it all along with "Captain's Discretion".   Thus, there were no hard and fast rules.  If we dig in deeper, even rigging was Captain's Discretion and could change at his whim.

[Lieste]

Combining 1779 and 1781 AO, the 1794 fit is met, with the 6 18pdr from the 1779 order, and the 2 32pdr from 1781 - The 1794 order increases the calibre of carronades for frigates and other rated vessels, and the size of the roundhouse carronades for the 2nd and first rate, but is otherwise mostly a repeat of the prior order.

[AON]

It has been a short while of good warm sunny weather and yard work.  Other than that I've read two wonderful books, From Powder Monkey to Governor and Memoirs of an Aristocrat. Each having first hand information about life in the Royal Navy and, in particular, HMS Bellerophon.  If you are interested in this ship, these are must reads IMHO.

 

I've also determined how I will be cutting out my gunports but am working on properly fitting my cills at the moment.  When I've got that figured out I will post again with details.

 

OH! and I am modelling my carronades with FUSION 360 to 3D print the two sizes (2 x 32 PDRS and 6 x 18 PDRS).  Doing the largest and scaling it down for the other.

Edited May 30, 2022 by AON

[Lieste]

Early Carronades are a shorter pattern than later ones.
While the 32pdr is available in 40 and 48" (with the extended blast tube/loading cup), the 18pdr may still only be using the 30" short pattern type in the early/mid 1780s - by 1793 a 40" length is noted for this smaller piece, but the date where the length increased isn't totally clear.

The link includes a table of recorded lengths by date of introduction/production (which is incomplete, but might be useful). Early carronades are very short, and have a single 'muzzle' finish. The later ones have a muzzle ring, then an extension of the tube and a second muzzle ring over the muzzle cup, and are around 2 calibres longer overall.

https://falkirklocalhistorysociety.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/object-9-carronade.pdf
 

[AON]

Thank you Lieste!  What a wonderfully informative document.  If nothing else it is the first piece that identified the name of all the parts... but it has got me wondering if I am doing the correct thing.

My sources arethe 68 Pdr image found in figure 68 of The Anatomy of Nelsons Ships, page 112, and an article The Carronade by Spencer C. Tucker, page 15 of the NRG March 1997 issue.  There was also a good image on page 173 of Historic Ship Models by Wolfram zu Mondfeld.  I also have a few photos of the carronades on the USS Brig Niagara albiet that would be 1812 era, a bit later and it is hung outboard.

 

From the latter I determined my guns were 6.25" Bore, 4'-3.5" long and 5.14" Bore, 3'-3" long.

 

I measured everything of the former and put that on an excel sheet then determined the multiplier from the measured bore size versus that stated above for the larger gun.

Then I applied the multiplier to the measured length and was within a fraction of an inch so I felt quite good.

I applied the multiplier to all other measurements and was ready to create my 3D model.

I would then determine the multiplier to scale down a copy of the larger model to make the smaller gun based on the bore sizes.

The calculated measurement of the smaller gun was within a couple inches... and at 1:64 scale no one will notice so I was happy.

 

But now from your document it seems there were no wheels at the rear of the slide or skead, nor sights in 1786.  Plus the slide was likely fastened outboard of the hull so the fire from the muzzle was beyond reach of the rigging.

 

I need to have a closer look at what Flyer did on his kit.

Edited May 31, 2022 by AON

[druxey]

The earliest carronades were mounted on the 'outside principle' with the pivot point outside the port. Also, early carronades did not have a muzzle extension to direct blast away from spreading to rigging. Photos are of carronades for Comet, 1783. I did quite a bit of research on these when I built that model.