HMS Pegasus by Landlubber Mike - Amati/Victory Models - Scale 1:64

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Mike, I think that both flat and  elliptical  Quarter badges were a feature on Swans, but looking at the plan I took the view that the ones on Pegasus were of the flat variety. In this case  the upper decoration would lie flat against the hull albeit in relief; I think Amati did quite a good job of reproducing the Dolphins.

 

However, modifying the Quarter Badge as in Hahn's Kingfisher and the Atalanta model in the NMM is a nice project and adds both interest and personalises your build.

 

The drawing in the ffm (p296) shows the basic upper stool with bell top as a flat structure with the bell in the centre. and on (p297) the upper finishing decoration is shown as solid but shaped with the inference that it follows the contour of the stool at the front, allowing for a lip/ moulding, but fits flat against the hull on the inner side.

 

I doubt there would be any space between the upper finishing and the hull as this would make it vulnerable.

Drawing 'D' on p 297 gives the idea.

 

On this basis you could I suppose use the provided dolphin decoration which would probably bend to follow the line.

 

The 'rounded' roof as used by Alistair is also a feature of the Kingfisher model by Hahn and there is a good photo of this in Vol 111 of the ffm (p204)

 

If you go down the 'modified' route I would suggest you construct the  badge as shown in Vol 11, you will then get a better idea of how the upper finishing decoration will fit in.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

 

 

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks BE and Spyglass for looking in and your thoughts.  I tend to agree with your assessment on how the upper finishing would be vulnerable if there was space.  Here's another picture to show folks what I'm trying to figure out:

 

 

 

The area of the red arrow I think needs to come out from the hull at least to where the top of the rounded window is (i.e., it couldn't be a blank space between the two dolphins).  Otherwise, the top of the window would be exposed and likely subject to damage I would think.  As you go up the hull towards the dolphin tails, that area likely slopes towards the hull giving more of the plan view D on p. 297 look.

 

For the green area in between the dolphin's tail and its head, I think this area also shouldn't be a "blank space" but should come off the hull planking a bit, with the dolphin essentially raised a little off of it.

 

The yellow area, which is the area just outside of the dolphin, is the trickiest.  The kit's quarter badge piece is slightly bigger than the PE dolphin pieces, so you have sort of a quarter badge border around the dolphins.  You can see this in Alistair's approach where his upper finishing extends outside of the dolphins.  If you look at the NMM plans however, you can see the rails going right to the dolphins (particularly on the left side), which almost suggests that the outer edge of the dolphins marked the outer boundary of the upper finishing.  Not saying that Alistair's approach was incorrect, just that there might be different interpretations on the quarter badges given the lack of clarity on the plans.

 

I'm going to have to sleep on it a bit, but I think what I'm going to do is attempt to have the boundary of the upper finishing marked by the outer edge of the dolphins.  I'll start by roughing out the upper finishing as per the TFFM instructions on p. 297, and essentially carve the dolphins in relief on that piece.  

Edited July 25, 2016 by Landlubber Mike

[Timmo]

Good luck with the carving Mike

[Blue Ensign]

Sounds like a plan Mike, I look forward to your progress.

 

B.E.

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks SpyGlass.  I'm actually thinking of building the quarter badges to project from the side of the hull, and not be flat as per the kit pieces and instructions.  The approach I'm taking is similar to what Alistair did on his Fly (picture of which is above).  

 

My posts above are probably not very clear, but I guess I was wondering if I take Alistair's approach, should the outer boundary of the upper finishing end at the dolphins, or be a bit wider as per Alistair's approach.  The NMM plans suggest the former. 

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks Spy - RWS' and Alistair's quarter badges were two models that I had saved.  I might have to play around with it a bit.  I think in both RWS' and Alistair's quarter badges, the upper finishing extends past the dolphins (kinda like how the lower finishing is more of the classic tear drop), while the NMM plans suggest that the boundary of the upper finishing ends at the dolphins.

 

I'm also trying to think ahead and plan for the sequencing of when the rails, headworks, and quarter badge should be installed.  Ideally, I'd like to run the rails as a single piece the full line of the hull in order the get the proper line between segments that might be broken up by the gunports, headworks, quarter badge, etc.  So, do I install the rails now, and either cut slots into the the quarter  badge, etc. to sit on top of the rails?  Or so I install the rails now and cut them off to fit the quarter badge, etc. flush to the hull?  Or, I suppose I could take the alternative approach of doing the headworks and quarter badge now, and then install the rails in segments.

[Martin W]

Hi Mike -- Work has kept me from being able to respond in any way to your interesting thought process, for which I apologize.  The badges on the NMM Fly plan look just as flat as the one on your Pegasus plans.  That makes me think that historically these were nominal, 2-dimensional, carved appliques.  That notwithstanding, I think Alistair's effort looks terrific.  If you go with the rounded 3-dimenional version, I would have to believe the problem with the dolphin spacing would work itself out as you see the actual pieces fitting together on your workbench.  (I'll just add the side note that that weird looking creature with the lips and bulging eyes seems to have been the conventional depiction of a dolphin/dogfish for quite some time; I've seen the same creature in paintings from this same era, and even recall - vaguely - seeing it in some of the taxonomies.  The stern carving on the Fly also has that creature; I really think that these Baroque designs just loved those curves.)

 

As for the rails, the safe progression to my thinking would be to keep them off as long as possible.  BE recounts having to repair his.  Here's a question I have for you, though, since I'm also thinking ahead (well ahead) to the rails:  what wood do you have in mind for them?  I thought of using something to contrast the boxwood (castello), but don't care for walnut, since its open grain conflicts with our scale.  Then I thought of pear, but worried that it would look too pink (a handsome wood, but pink nonetheless).  Ebony has too many health problems.  So I will probably use boxwood.  With your contrasting woods, I'd be very interested to hear what you have planned.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[hollowneck]

When I want a black color, I either dye (Fiebings or a selection of others, alcohol-based) my boxwood pieces or simply paint them with a high-quality flat black acrylic (Vallejo). More often than not I use dyes (usually two applications). Boxwood is difficult because of the tight grain, but is does take dyes/stains. I recently stained boxwood blocks (from Syren Ship Model) with a red chestnut stain (Minwax) in order to make them look like Swiss pear; it worked just fine. When I paint with flat black acrylic I usually apply a single wipe-on polyurethane coat to give it an ever-so-subtle sheen to reflect a bit of ambient light. This "lifts" the color and makes for an attractive contrast, especially on rails and wales. Hey...I made an unintentional rhyme!

 

Hey Mike. Your Pegasus is looking excellent.

 

Ron

[Landlubber Mike]

Hey Ron, thanks for looking in!  Not sure if you remember, but I bought this kit from you a few years ago.  Glad I did - it was a good step up in difficulty that has really pushed me to get better.  Plus, with the TFFM books, NMM plans and all my fellow Swan class builders here, it's been a really fun project.  One of these days I'll hopefully be half as good as you

 

Hope all is well with you.  

Edited July 27, 2016 by Landlubber Mike

[Landlubber Mike]

Hey Martin, no worries my friend.  I've been swamped with work as well and haven't had much time to visit on here, let alone work on my Pegasus.  

 

On the badges, that's interesting about the dolphin/dogfish motif.  It almost looks asian inspired in some ways.  I think I'm going to try to do the badges in more of a three dimensional way.  I started cutting out some of the pieces using the TFFM approach, so we'll see how that goes.  This is going to be a good test for how the painting with wood approach and my entry into carving goes.  I'm planning on boxwood for the rails and the figures in the upper and lower finishing, blue for the background on the upper and lower finishing (GF blue on boxwood to match the blue frieze area), holly for the window frames, redheart for the upper segment of the lower finishing with boxwood accents, and other boxwood accents.  We'll see if I can pull that off - if I can, then I can think about tackling the stern area.  

 

For the three rails on the hull, I'm going to use boxwood.  Part of the reason I didn't use boxwood for the upper hull planking is that I like the contrast of boxwood rails against other colors.  I think boxwood will set off nicely against the redheart, the blue frieze areas, the dark brown stained pear, and the black in the stern counter.    Since most of my model is showcasing wood grain (either naturally or through stains), I'm going to test adding stains or washes to help bring out of the grain and deep areas (like in the ridges of the rails or low areas of carvings).  

 

Tough call on what to do with your Fly.  If you're planning to carve the rails like in TFFM, then you might want to consider a tighter grained wood than walnut.  Pear could work - would you be open to staining it?  It takes stain very nicely (the brown on my upper hull is pear stained with GF Antique Oak).  BE seems to have used boxwood for the upper hull planking and rails - but then again, he painted the frieze area blue and the upper part red (not sure if you're planning to go that route).

 

I've seen others use black for the railings, so GF Black is a nice option too.  I know Ron and others have used Fieblings dye, but Chris had mentioned that on his Confederacy, it was starting to fade or rub off (I forget which).  One other thing to consider if you want to use black is to take a look at African Blackwood.  It's a super nice wood and didn't seem all that bad to work with (though, i just cut a single test plank).  I'm 99% sure that I'm going to use it for the black areas on my Charles Morgan once I can find a good source.

[mtaylor]

Mike,

 

I think I'll pop in my $.02 (US) after reading the pros and cons and looking at TFFM.    

 

These were 6th rate ships as I recall, sloops, not frigates.  Built in quantity to fill out the fleet in smaller ships for scouting, patrols, etc.  The problem is, both ways could be correct for this ship.  Some NMM plans on the gundeck drawings show a shape of the galleries, others don't even for ships of the same class.  And, this is tough one.. later ships of the class often had differences from the first based on experience of the captains.   A good example is the Roebuck class.   They had two rows of windows on the stern and galleries for the first couple.  By the time they built Serapis, the top row of false lights on the galleries and stern were gone. 

 

I think you'd be safe in going either way...  so, basically, I'm not saying "do it this way".  But "do it your way".  

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks Mark.  I went through the various Swan class plans on the NMM site, and none really seem to show the projections for the quarterbadges.  Interestingly, TFFM says that the Vulture's plans show a flat quarterbadge, but I'm not sure how they came to that conclusion.  It's probably very well the case that I just don't know how to read the plans though.

 

Scaling the TFFM plans down to 1:64, the quarterbadges are only going to extend 4.5-5mm from the hull at the stool (the widest point).  So we're not talking about a very pronounced quarterbadge.  If anything, TFFM cautions that many make the mistake of extending the quarterbadge too far from the hull. 

 

Below are the two sets of line plans for the Pegasus available at the NMM.  The first, J5006, is what I'm basing my build on and the plans that Amati seems has based the kit on.  The second, J5009, is a bit more bare of the various decorative elements on J5006, but has what I'd say is more of a traditional looking quarterbadge.

 

 

[hollowneck]

Mike,

 

Yes, of course I remember you. I don't spend much time here, only look in every few weeks to see what's happening and if I can contribute something with a comment or two. Or learn something new! - LIKE: fading black dye! Eeeeeek.

 

I just checked on my Mercury on which I used Fiebings black dye for the wales. Chris is right. In fact, an area that gets a little sunlight is faded- slightly - but nonetheless is being affected even though I used a Wipe-On poly over the dyed strips. Many thanks to you for mentioning this in a subsequent post. Makes sense; UV will fade just about anything- except two layers of flat black acrylic paint. I used paint on the cap rails and there is no sign of fading whatsoever in a similar area that has had some sun exposure.

 

As I already mentioned, you are doing an impressive job with this model. I am really happy that my Pegasus went to a Good Home.

 

Ron

[Landlubber Mike]

Ron, I'm wondering if stains would be a better solution.  Take a look at General Finishes Black Stain - it goes on very evenly to the point of looking identical across different types of woods.  I would say that it is almost a hybrid between paint and stain marrying the best qualities of both.  GF also does an Ebony Dye Stain, but it is more stain-like in effect.  I tried Varathane black or ebony stain, and it was too thin to use across different types of woods.  So far the GF stain is holding up very well.

 

And thanks for the kind words, means a lot coming from someone of your skill level.

[Landlubber Mike]

Have been a bit busy with work and with family in town, and frankly, aside from time, I haven't had much energy or inclination to work on my Pegasus for whatever reason.  But, I have started building the individual components for the quarter galleries and started work on the bulwark planking.  So, I guess there's some progress.

 

I'm considering whether to stain my deck, which is a little on the lighter side.  So, I tested the various stains I had on some scrap pieces of maple.  I also tried out the two "Age-It" products from Micromark (Gray and Brown) on pear, boxwood and maple.  The first set of tests are in the top half of the picture below, and the Age-it tests are on the bottom half.

 

 

 

The GF stains on maple were quite interesting.  I used Antique Oak on the upper hull planking, which turned the pear almost walnut in color.  Yet, on maple, the wood turned a grayish color which I really like for my Charles Morgan deck, as the color seems pretty spot on from when I visited the ship a couple of years ago.  The Age-It stains were very interesting too.  Both really brought the pear to life.  The brown on the boxwood looked pretty good too.  

 

I also tried various stains and finishes on boxwood.  I'm considering carving the stern and quarterbadge figures in boxwood, as well as scraping the various rails to be more decorative.  So, I wanted to see how stains and other finishes would look on boxwood, and in particular, in the recesses of the carvings which is why I knicked the one edge of the test pieces.  

 

 

 

The General Finishes Amber and Yellow really changed the color of the boxwood.  Yellow was a bit too yellow, but Amber looked pretty good.  The Micromark Age-It Brown had a nice effect.  I'd probably lean towards the amber or the Age-It brown, but i still have some time to make a decision.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Landlubber Mike

[donrobinson]

Hey Mike, My first pick would be the Micro Mark Age - it, then Tung oil and after that natural. The top two are good but maybe not so much for a deck of Pegasus. Just my thoughts

[Martin W]

Hi Mike -- I'm a huge fan of tung oil, and slathered it on the blanket chest and rocking horse I made.  I think for your deck you might want to consider what you'll be making the furniture out of -- will the comings be boxwood, walnut, or what?  and how will it contrast with or complement your decking?  As I recall, your maple looked quite striking as is.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Blue Ensign]

I think Martin makes a good point, I quite like the natural look of your deck and I would think long and hard before I committed to a colour change. Still I think your good judgement will make the right decision, it's always tricky to reach a conclusion from looking at photo samples on the computer.

 

B.E.

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks guys!  After bringing out the model into more natural light (my workshop is mostly fluorescents), the natural maple actually looks quite nice.  I'm pretty far from finishing the deck, with still needing to treenail and all, so I have a little time.  I think i was worried that the deck was very light against the black, dark brown, blue and redheart areas that it might not fit in.  I think after some tung oil it will darken a tad.  Plus, it looks like the deck has already darkened a bit over time.

 

Martin, I'm going to match the coamings to the dark brown stained upper hull.  I had also stained the gratings, and I think the combo looks pretty good.  Otherwise, the bitts and gun carriages will be redheart.

 

Speaking of redheart, the upper bulkhead extensions that I made in redheart have lightened to almost a brownish-orange color.  I'm in the process of doing the bulwark planking, and there was definitely a mismatch.  I went ahead and sanded the visible extensions around the waist so that the color more closely matches the fresh planks that I'm using, and so that everything ages relatively together.  I knew about the redheart color change going in, and actually, I think it should mellow into a nice look with the rest of the model.

[Landlubber Mike]

Work and family has been limiting my time in the shipyard, but I made some progress over the last few weeks.  I started the bulwark planking, and managed to get the waist area completed.  Need a little sanding here and there particularly to help define spirketting from the quickstuff, and to touch up the gun ports and sweep ports.

 

 

 

I did the spirketting as a single piece at about 1.25mm thickness, and the quickwork as three rows of planks at about 0.8mm in thickness.  It's a little simplified from the bulwark planking in TFFM, which includes a scarpf joint somewhere in there, along with top and butt planks I believe.  Given how much of this area is going to be covered up with the cannons, etc., it didn't seem all that worth it to torture myself - I feel like I went though enough on the outer hull planking 

 

The wood I'm using is redheart.  It can be crumbly at times, but for planking, it works really nicely.  Over time it will mellow a bit to a more orange-brown, which I think will be a nice effect along with the other colors in the build.  You can see a bit of this color change in the bulkhead uprights which I replaced a year or two with redheart.  The only thing to watch out for is that the end grain turns almost black if you use an oil finish - i found that using varnish preserves the color much better.  I'll also be using redheart for the gun carriages, bitts, and likely the capstan, as well as a part of the stern decorative area.  I already used it for the upper stripe on the outer upper hull.  In some ways this "painting with wood" idea has been a pain, but I'm really happy with how things are coming together.

 

Thanks for looking in!

[donrobinson]

Looks good Mike, I agree with your decision with the scarpf joint and and top and butt planks. When she is all finished there will be so much to look at that they would go unnoticed and would be hard to see at any rate.

 I recently had people over at my house and about the only thing noticed on my models was the all the "strings" 

 Great work

[Blue Ensign]

That's an excellent 'natural' red ochre equivalent for the inboard works Mike, nicely done.

 

B.E.

[Landlubber Mike]

Thanks Don.  I've had a similar experience when people outside the hobby look at my work.  I almost want to tell them about all the extra details that are added, but I don't think they would fully get it.  I'm sure the response would be, "you agonized over that tiny detail??"

 

It's that darn Blue Ensign guy and his Swan crew and their exquisite builds that push me to put in all these extra details 

[donrobinson]

I agree, he(B.E.) does blaze a trail that is hard if not impossible to follow. It is fun to try though.

[Martin W]

Well done, Mike.  You've got my admiration using that redheart like that.  "Crumbly" is right, that's exactly what it does.  When I was working on my capstan, I had to throw out half the pieces I cut just because they fell apart (and usually just as I was getting them to look right).  So I can understand the strategy to lay single pieces for the quickwork & the spirketting -- the wider the better.

 

And that shot gives a nice view of your handsome planking.  The taper toward the hatch makes an eye-appealing touch.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[jwvolz]

Very nice Mike. 

[Landlubber Mike]

I finished the bulwark planking, though I left the very tops open for the thin strips of above the forecastle and quarterdeck. I think the redheart is a really nice touch.  It won't stay this red, but over time will fade to a more orange-brown color which I think will be a nice effect against some of the other colors in the build.  It's a nice wood to work with, though it can be a little crumbly and has a little of a burning rubber odor when working on it with tools (it doesn't bother me at all, but given that some people mention it, it must bother them).  To tie everything together, in addition to the bulwark planking and red strip on the upper hull, I will likely use redheart for the bitts and possibly capstan.  I'm also planning on integrating it into the stern as well as the quarterbadges as a bit of a decorative touch.

 

 

I didn't bother with different thickness woods for the spirketting and waterway or with any focus on the widths of the planks for the non-waist areas, as those areas will be covered by the forecastle and quarterdeck.  In case you could see a little of the bulwarks, through the gunport or otherwise, I figured I might as well use the redheart for consistency instead of stains or paints.

 

Not sure what I want to tackle next.  I'm mostly a lap modeler, so I'm thinking of doing the upper hull rails and certain other elements now, including possibly the stern and quarterbadges, and at some point I'll also need to treenail the deck.  I want to delay adding the cannons as long as possible given my propensity for popping them off my Badger, but I'm also hoping to delay the coppering as long as I can as well.  My guess is that I'll do most of the outer hull details, copper the hull, then switch back to the main deck to add the deck items and guns.

[donrobinson]

Looks real good Mike. I am thinking that redheart is much the same as blood wood as it also is brittle and full of oil making it burn easily. I am interested in how you are going to do your coppering as I have seen it done plate by plate and also by strips. I have never done copper yet and am looking forward to see what your approach will be.

[Blue Ensign]

Lovin' the colours Mike.

 

I seem to recall That I coppered my hull once I had finished the outer planking including the upper rails, but before I added the stern and Quarter lights. Didn't want to risk any damage to the glazed areas during the coppering particularly as I was using ca to fix the plates.

 

B.E.

[Martin W]

Nicely done, Mike.  That redheart looks fabulous.  Did you put polyurethane or any other finish on it?  The capstan I made from redheart has about 4 or 5 coats of poly on it, and it's faded a bit less than other pieces I have.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin