Mast alignment

[tdmongillo]

Hi, 

I'm new to ship modelling and I'm wondering if anyone has advice on how to ensure masts are aligned. I have a solid wood hull and I'm at the stage where I need to drill holes into the hull, and I'm concerned that drilling the holes with the slightest misalignment will be compounded at the top end of the mast. The way I see it there are a couple of ways to do this:

 

1. Drill the holes perfectly to size and angulation.

2. Drill holes larger than necessary and use shims to align later.

 

What methods have you used? Your advice is greatly appreciated.

[BareHook]

One thing to consider is whether or not to glue the mast in the hull. If you have a slightly oversized hole, you can fine tune the mast alignment as the standing rigging (stays and shrouds) are added, and they will hold the mast in place. On the old site, there was a thread discussing glueing masts, and I think it was an even split whether to glue or not. I you get it close, either way you should be able to fine tune it with the rigging.

 

Ken

[shark bait]

I am working on my first build and don't have a lot of experience, but one thing I got right was not gluing the masts. They were easy to align with the rigging.

Bill

[Garward]

It is better: Drill holes larger than necessary and use shims to align later.

[Modeler12]

I agree: don't glue the masts unless you are absolutely sure every else has been taken care of (and that is much later during the build).

Drill the holes close to what you think is needed. Step the masts into the deep holes and use a 'template' to make sure they are somewhat lined up fore and aft, and then go forward. Fine tune later.

[tdmongillo]

Sweet! Thanks so much for the advice. 

[Anja]

From me also, thank you for the tips.

I too was wandering whether or not to glue the masts in place.

 

Take care,

 

Anja

[maso]

Thanks everyone on this. I am just about at this stage and was wondering about the same.

Dave

[dcicero]

I've been warned so many times not to glue the masts in that I'd be scared to do so!

 

For alignment, I use the little jib described in Mastini's Ship Modeling Simplified.  It's just two small dowels of equal length, placed parallel to each other and pinned together at one end. It's a little bipod.  With the two ends placed against the bulkheads, the pin should be right in the middle of the mast.  It's really easy to check alignment as you work.  On my Scottish Maid, the foremast alignment was a little tricky.  I used the shrouds to hold it properly in place and checked as I progressed with the "mast alignment tool."  Worked out just fine.

 

 

 

Dan

[Blackie]

Hi all

I am building a version of AL Harvey and my build log is on this site. I have about abandoned the kit for the masts and rigging and most of the deck fittings and my query is about the rake of the masts for a Baltimore Clipper. The kit has them at 8 and 9 degrees off the vertical but it appears from my reading that they were more likely to be 12-16 degrees. 

Can anyone offer suggestions?

Thanks

Blackie

[mtaylor]

Blackie,

 

The easiest way is to open the hole in the deck slightly and then shim the mast with wedges to get the desired rake.

[Blackie]

Thanks Mark

What I also want to know is which angles should I be using for a Baltimore Clipper?  Perhaps this is not the correct forum but it's what I found in my search.

Blackie

PS my copy of Mastini's Ship Modeling Simplified (1990) does not have Dan's bipod but a very complicated arrangement of posts, protractor and plumb bobs. I'm not sure that I follow Dan's version - can someone explain it a little more?

[russ]

Blackie:

I do not think there will be any hard and fast rules for mast rakes on Baltimore clippers. I think each captain probably had a favorite rake for each mast that had worked well for him and that is what he used. You can use what you found on the Pride of Baltimore if that looks good to you.

 

Russ

[Blackie]

Thanks Russ. I thought that might be the case. I read that no two Baltimore Clippers were the same and that seems what you would expect when you read about where and how they were built.

Thanks again 

[gregs1234]

Hello Blackie, I am building the Bluejacket Jefferson Davis. Although it is a newer design than the original Baltimore Clippers, it is similar. The plans for the Jefferson Davis show the masts at 9 degrees from vertical. I also have a plan drawn in 1938 for the Joe Lane (same style of ship as Jefferson Davis). Those plans also show 9 degrees. Both sets of plans show the main and the foremast at the same angle.

[Ulises Victoria]

I prefer to have the masts perfectly aligned and firm 'before' setting the rigging. So I take every precaution to align and glue them as firm as possible. I prefer not to worry (or worry less) with yet another thing such as mast alignment while working on my rigging.

[Landlubber Mike]

I prefer to have the masts perfectly aligned and firm 'before' setting the rigging. So I take every precaution to align and glue them as firm as possible. I prefer not to worry (or worry less) with yet another thing such as mast alignment while working on my rigging.

I glued the masts on my Badger for the same reason.  The rake was predetermined by the slots in the keel, so it was just a matter of limiting the lateral motion.

 

Is there a particular reason not to glue the masts?  

[michaelpsutton2]

Howard I Chappelle has an excellent book "The Baltimore Clipper" If you are going to research and then decide for your self it would be wise to have as many examples as possible. At least here in New orleans it is available from the library.

[Blackie]

Thanks for the comments

I have had for a number of years, a copy of Howard Chapelle's book "The Baltimore Clipper". As you say Michael, it is an excellent read and it is one of the sources that I am using as I work my way (albeit slowly) through my model of a Baltimore Clipper. The examples shown in Chapelle's book show the masts raking at anywhere from about 12 to 15 degrees so I don't think that I can go too far wrong if I am in that range.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Blackie

[von stetina]

I used oversize holes that could be covered by the mast coats and used shims.  A touch of elmer's glue on the shims for easy removal if needed. I used a level on the hull and a plumb bob to align the masts. A sinch.

 

I wouldn't relie on the rigging to correct earlier flaws, it puts undue stress and will almost certainly revert. Get it right early on, it's worth the time. I've done most things two or three times to get things right. Now as I do my standing rigging it's pretty easy. Still did a lot over though.

 

Von Stetina

 

building clipper Lightning 1/8 scale for 7 years now........

Edited July 12, 2013 by von stetina

[ianmajor]

One reason that appeared in a previous thread for not glueing masts in place is that they are easier to repair/replace in the event that they are damaged.

[Ulises Victoria]

I don't know who said that Ian, but it sounds to me like saying I will not drive my car because I may have an accident 

[Freddy Andrew]

Building the Norske Love by Billings I decided not to glue the masts in place.  I am currently working on alignment of the masts, locating them through the decks and making plywood retaining plates drilled to accommodate each mast end.  When each mast has been correctly aligned, the retaining plate will be glued to the corresponding mounting step (or lower deck).  By leaving some clearance in the retaining plate holes, it should be possible to refine the final alignment through adjustment of the stay rigging while working with a stable mast assembly.

[HIPEXEC]

I need to drill three holes that will be perpendicular to the deck from every aspect. Any tips as to how to do this. I'm about to build a drilling guide that will sit perfectly flat with a perpendicular hole in it. I have no idea if this will work. I would like to hear all ideas. My first build the masts had a rearward rake and it took me forever to get them parallel and aligned. The perpendicular ones should be easier?

[Blackie]

Hi gregs1234, Thanks for your comment. I have gone with 10 degrees for the fore mast angle and will probably add 1-2 degrees to the main mast depending on what it looks like when I get there. 

There is one thing that I have found in rigging the fore mast that needs thinking about and planning for. It is that the greater the rake of the mast, the location of the back stay(s) will become critical. I have found that a fixed back stay rigged to the channel close to the last shroud is too close to the cross tree. It ended up touching the cross tree when I rigged the fore stays so I am now moving it sternwards on the channel and replacing the deadeyes with blocks to allow it to be eased when the gaff is eased. I will also adjust the location of the fixing eyebolts for the working back stay. 

[normanh]

In a kit the mast is usually located into a slot within the false keel often with blocks of ply with a semicircular cutout at the bottom of the slot to stop the mast moving out of alignment, the deck alignmet is usually controlled by the deck ply. Just be careful in drilling the deck ply to match the slots. I usually put a pin in the lower end of the mast that I push into the false keel to stop any movement once I am happy with the position. Its worked on the 3 models I have built to date.

 

Norman

[Cap'n Rat Fink]

_{HI BLACKIE,}

 

   _{I HAVE NOT BEEN AROUND FOR MONTHS BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF WORK THAT HAS KEPT ME AWAY FROM BUILDING. HOPE TO COMEBACK SOON. WISH I HAD SEEN THIS THREAD WHEN IT FIRST CAME OUT.}

 

_{HERE'S MY LITTLE JIG THAT HELPS ME WITH MY MAST AND RIGGING}

 

_{2 PIECES OF HARDWOOD STRIPES...FOR ME 3/8 INCH}

_{LENGTH IS UP TO THE BUILDER TO SUIT HIS OR HER NEEDS}

_{DRILL HOLE AT CENTER OF LENGTH OR WHERE IT WORKS FOR YOU(BUT NOT TOO LOW OR TOO HIGH)}

 

_{BOLT/WING NUT}

 

_{ANGLE THE BOTTOM ENDS OF THE JIG TO SIT ON DECK PROPERLY}

 

_{ALL YOU DO IS PLACE YOUR MAST IN MAST HOLE AT THE RACK YOU WANT. WEDGE JIG WHERE DECK AND BULWARKS MEET. TIGHTEN BOLT N NUT AND THE JIG SHOULD HOLD YOUR MAST AT THE RACK YOU WANT. IT ALSO KEEPS THE MAST PERPENTICULAR TO YOUR HULL. THAT'S IT!!!}

 

_{WHEN I AM READY TO RIG I PUT THE JIG BACK IN PLACE. IT KEEPS THE MAST STEADY AND IN PLACE WHILE RIGGING. THAT WAY I DON'T HAVE IT LEANING TOO MUCH TO STARBOARD OR PORT.}

 

_{OH YEA I AM A CHAPELLE FAN TOO}

 

_{GOOD LUCK AND HAVE FUN}

 

_MARIO

 

 

[michaelpsutton2]

For centuries the guys who built in the traditional 1:1 scale used wedges placed all the way around the mast at the upper deck.  A canvas "coat" was then used to keep water from leaking in between the wedges. In addition to allowing them to fine tune the rig when it was in use, it took some of the pressure off of the builders.

 

I guess in practice the fore and aft trim of the vessel would affect the angle of the masts as well.

 

 

I think there is an illustration of this in Harold Underhill's "Masting & Rigging: The Clipper & Ocean Carrier".

 

I will check when I get home. Is it a violation of the rules to share the pic on this forum if it is there? I am sure the book is still under copyright. I did properly render unto Ceasar to obtain the book.

[hollowneck]

Michael,

 

You break no law (or rules) with a photo or illustration here as long as you credit the source accurately with the post. 

 

There seems to be no shortage of info/advice on this subject. My 2 cents: I also use no glue, and align masts with rigging and shims.

 

Ron