DB789

On 11/22/2023 at 1:11 AM, Thukydides said:

I haven't gotten to this point, but one thing I have seen people do is super glue the end of the line in place and then make the rope Hank separately and put it over the glued line.

Thanks, I might try that. I try and tie it off with a figure of eight knot or two around both ends of the belaying pin - which I find very fiddly sometimes. Then glue it and cut it short.

On 11/22/2023 at 2:23 AM, Gregory said:

Here is a nice example of coil making 

Then later make the coil to hang over the top to pretty it up. That guide from Glenn Barlow looks very useful and I’ll use it when I make the coils. I haven’t done these yet for Alert either, not my favourite job… maybe I’ll be doing some coil making for both over Xmas. 

On 11/22/2023 at 5:36 PM, chris watton said:

I sometimes start at the belaying point and then work upwards to where the line is secured to the yard...

Thanks Chris, I’ll try that for my next build, the lines are already attached on this one. 
 

Glenn- Thanks for the encouragement! 
 

Schooner - I’ll try that on lines that I’m confident don’t need adjusting. 
 

All the running rigging lines are now in place, but Grecian’s rigging is quite a tangle at the moment. Too many unglued lines, but necessarily so as I want to make sure that each line has the right tension and that the yards are all aligned and parallel (which they are not at the moment). Some lines are not tied off at all and not taught, that will be fixed, hopefully. 

 

Getting this right is somewhat of a challenge for me. Is there a good practice way of approaching this, such as doing one yard at a time and then tying and glueing that yards, maybe starting with the top gallant and moving down? I’m hoping when I pull all the right ropes she’ll come good! 
 

I see that myxyzptlyk2003 has chosen to simplify the rigging on his Grecian from the plans, maybe I should have done the same, although if I can’t manage Grecian’s relatively simple rigging I’m not yet ready for Speedy which will be my next big build. 
 

Thanks again for all the advice and encouragement. 

Rigging progresses. Earlier in the log, I mentioned that Grecian is not much trickier than Erycina. That’s true of making the hull, mast and spars. The rigging, however, is more complex. 

I’m quite used to fore and aft rigging now, but finding the yards on the foremast trickier. As a beginner to this, each of the yards seems to have seven lines attached to it to keep it in position. To start with I didn’t dare tie off and glue any of them for fear I need to change the tension on them later. So for the topgallant and topsail yards I had 10 lines dangling down weighted by crocodile clips getting tangled up…. So I took the plunge and tied off and glued some. Hope I won’t regret it. 

Fore course yard is yet to be fitted, although the sling for the yard can be seen loosely tied on for now and floating around. 

I’ve just noticed that in these photos that the forward two cannons are not in place. They’re not glued yet as they may be in the way, the downside of this is that I keep having to rescue them from my little son’s Lego fortress. 

I’m finding the rigging a little confusing despite Vanguard’s excellent plans. The Vanguard plans  superbly layout exactly where each line runs from and too and how it should be attached, they couldn’t be clearer. What I’m finding harder is where each line should run relative to all the other lines without touching them - it would be almost impossible to show this on a plan without it becoming incredibly confusing and furthermore the neutral lines are hard to see against a white background in the photos on Jim’s incredibly helpful build log. The Petersson rigging book doesn’t help in this regard either as it breaks out each line individually too.  I’m sure with experience it will become clearer where they should run, for me it’s a learning curve. I think they’re roughly right so far. 
 

The other thing I find hard is looping the line around the belaying pins and tying it off, is there a good technique for this? 
 

Grecian visiting Alert. 

Thanks again for all the likes encouragement and advice. 

The fore and aft rigging on Grecian is complete (I’ll take some photos later), now only the yards on the foremast to add. These are made and painted but not fitted or rigged yet. 
 

So I’ve revisited the boat, which I’ve been putting off. Despite some early successes on the fishers using dragged oil to simulate wood on resin winch parts, I haven’t managed a decent looking dragged finish for the interior of the cutter. 
 

Initially I followed the instructions advice and went for white using the same AK white as the rest of the kit, but it looks quite stark and unfinished when fitted to Grecian. 
Note, not all the cannon are glued in place and need aligning. 

I decided instead to paint some of the interior green and the gunwales brown. 

Looks better, I think. Still a little touching up of paint to be done here and the boat needs to be tied down. I broke the tiller handle and had to fashion a new one, so I’ll likely add the rudder and tiller when the boat is in situ and finished. 
 

Once the foremast yards are added and rigged then I think it’s just the anchors left to do. Plus any tidy up and varnishing. 
 

Thanks again for all the help, advice and likes! 

On 11/13/2023 at 11:47 AM, chris watton said:

Carefully scrape off with a knife blade, and then re apply a drop of varnish. This is what I do, at least.

 

I normally suggest 0.1 natural for rats becase it is not nearly as stiff as the black, so less likely to pull the shoulds too much. The Indian Ink then also helps secure the clove hitches - but always paper behind the shrouds, to keep any splashes to an absolute minimum.

On 11/13/2023 at 12:04 PM, Thukydides said:

What Chris said should work.

 

You could use small amounts of isopropyl on a swab (I assume this is acrylic paint), but the problem with wood is you may still end up rubbing it around more than rubbing it off. you could try putting a few spots on the offcut of the deck and letting it dry for a few days. Then try the isopropyl on it as a test to see how well it works. Maybe a combination of scraping and then a bit of isopropyl might work, but I would test it before using on the model.

 

Did you varnish  the deck? If so what did you use. If you used an oil based varnish then the isopropyl will be much safer than it would have been on bare wood.

 

For the CA shine use matt or ultra matt vanish. Just dilute it 50-50 with water and brush it on. When it drys it will get rid of the shine. If the spot of CA is particularly thick you may need a second coat on that area. See the link below, you can get it in much smaller bottles, just look for your local hobby store (the ones that sell D&D figures and Warhammer).

https://www.amazon.ca/Vallejo-Ultra-Polyurethane-Varnish-28-653/dp/B09RMTHG9P/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=vallejo+ultra+matt&qid=1699876988&sr=8-1

 

Thank you both again. I used a sharp knife which initially left the deck appearing a bit scratched, but then retreated the area with Danish oil. Looks great thank you. I didn’t dare using isopropanol as the deck isn’t varnished.
 

Chris your guidance on the natural vs black 0.1mm makes complete sense. I think given my propensity for spilling Indian ink and wrecking the model at a late stage of build I’ll probably stick with the lower risk option of black 0.1mm line from Guterman which I used on Grecian. 

That’s excellent advice on the ultra Matt varnish for shiny CA spots rather than repainting which can get messy.  I’ll source some and use it in future. 

I haven’t varnished anything on Grecian, do I need to? I’ve used Danish oil on the bare wood parts which gives me the colour I’d like. I could experiment again with mixing some wipe-on poly using Glenn-UK’s recipe or I could go without. On Alert I just used the matt Vallejo varnish undiluted and it looks OK, that’s an option too. 
 

That looks excellent. Wish I could plank as neatly as that! 

Another piece of advice if I may? 
 

I’ve painted some of the rigging - either where it says dye the neutral 0.1mm lines (although I’ve mainly used black 0.1mm thread for this, there’s a few places that I didn’t) or where I’ve used a little CA and it’s shiny. 
 

In doing so I splattered some small black drops on the deck (using the AK-47 acrylic paint set from Vanguard for Grecian). I didn’t notice at the time and they’ve had two weeks to dry

Now there’s quite a lot of rigging up it’s not easy to sand these off and they’re quite stubborn. Is there an easier way to remove them with a solvent (I’ve tried water). The deck is not varnished but does have Danish oil on it. 
 

Many thanks

Dan
 

4 hours ago, Thukydides said:

One thing you can do is identify the way it is trying to twist and pre do a couple of twists in that direction. That will make the rope want to twist back and may help counteract the forces. That is what I have been doing with the shrouds on alert.

Thanks. That’s what I’ve been trying, it has got rid of the twists in the lines but didn’t get rid of the 90 degrees out of alignment.

I’ve tried Chris and Glenn’s diluted PVA on one vang so far and it seems to have worked a treat. 
 

Your Alert is looking stunning, I wish I had your patience and attention to detail! 

Chris, Glenn, super - thank you both. 
Dan 

I’ve been away a fortnight so very little progress. 
 

I’d love some advice. The block on the starboard vang for both the fore and main masts wants to turn 90 degrees and so is out of alignment. I’ve had great difficulty getting the four lines up to the block not to twist as soon as I let go, so this has been the best I can do with the lines untwisted. Can anyone recommend a way to get the block to turn 90 degrees and stay there? 
 

I’ve tried unthreading the line multiple time and re threading having twisted the block but to no avail. 

Main mast:

Fore Mast:

Thanks for any help! 

Chris, as a relative newcomer to the hobby (a year and a half and almost seven boats built, all Vanguard and mostly fishers), I’m certain I’d not have got into boat building without your superb range of kits and indeed Jim’s excellent instructions and build logs. I will always be very grateful and I can’t see why I’d ever buy a kit from another manufacturer and risk almost certain disappointment. It’s fantastic to hear how well your business is going. 
 

I think your kits are absolutely excellent and clearly differentiated from competitors. Personally, I’d happily pay significantly more for them, I appreciate that not everyone can afford to and there’s always a tricky balance between price and volume of sales. I probably won’t be popular on MSW for saying it, but possibly increasing prices, reducing volumes sold and growing your margin could give you a similar level of profits and free up some of your time from manufacturing so you can design new kits. 
 

Dan

Standing rigging I think now complete. No big issues, but it’s certainly been more complex than the Vanguard fishers, albeit only harder than Alert in that there’s more of her having two masts not one. 
 

The gaffs and boom are just held on by parrel beads and are not in their final positions. 

She’s not an easy model to photograph well in her entirety without a photo bay with white background given the height of the masts and lengths of bowsprit and boom. So apologies for the not great photos below. 

There’s a lot of lines going to the bowsprit, but the Vanguard plans are incredibly clear and split these out superbly across a couple of plan sheets. Aided by Jim H’s excellent build log photos of Grecian. 
 

Phil thanks for the advice on gammoning, that worked a treat. 

With Alert. 

Running rigging and foremast spars still to be added. Anchors I’ll fit last. No decision on the ship’s boat yet, I need to do more work on it before deciding. 

Thanks for all the likes and encouragement. She’s a great kit and I thoroughly recommend her to other builders - surprised I’m the only Grecian build log on MSW other than Jim’s prototype. 

3 hours ago, Dr PR said:

The books say to just lash the free end to the nearest loop of the gammoning with seizing. That is what I did on my model.

Thanks Phil, I’ll try that. 

Tying the ratlines, one of the more tedious jobs.  There’s almost 200 ratlines to be tied across both masts. There’s only ratlines on the lower shrouds on Grecian, but these masts are tall… clove hitches galore, almost 700 knots. 

Main mast upper shrouds, futtock shrouds and backstays fitted. 

I do like the 3D shape of her rigging starting to come together at this stage. 
 

I’ll likely make and fit the gaffs and boom before  the standing rigging on the bowsprit. Once the bowsprit is glued she’ll become a big, fragile model to move around and the likelihood of a breakage increases.  
 

When it does come to fitting the bowsprit there’s some gammoning to be done, can anyone suggest how to tie the end of this off neatly? 
 

Many thanks 

On 10/10/2023 at 12:26 AM, BobG said:

I like that model a lot but the overall length with the long bowsprit might be a deal breaker for me since we live in a smaller home.

Grecian is a really fun kit, very straightforward to build, but she’s going to take up a lot of room. 
 

I’ve put together a table based on the dimensions of the kits on Vanguard’s website. The measurements are at the widest / longest / highest part so would be the absolute minimum dimensions for the kit to fit within a rectangular case with no additional space around it. 
Grecian is longer than Sphinx and the overall volume of a case only marginally less than Sphinx which is a much more complex build and the one I’m aiming for eventually.
 

Grecian’s volume is roughly double that needed for Alert or Speedy, the latter being surprisingly small.
 

I think that the height measurement for Trial is wrong on the website, in the photos she looks taller than the larger fishing boats but Chris’s height measurement says 285mm. I suspect her correct height should be 385mm which makes her volume 68k cm cubed so just between Speedy and Duchess of K. 
 

Ranger is my next build. After that I’ll tackle my first square rigger. That will almost certainly be the new version of Speedy. I did debate Speedy vs DoK, but DoK is much smaller than Speedy and has the rigging of three not two masts to fit in. I think too soon for me to tackle such a lot of rigging on such a small ship.

1 hour ago, BobG said:

Very nice work, Dan! I'm amazed at how long that bowsprit is too!

Thanks Bob, it’s huge. Going to require a large case… 

Not had enough time shipbuilding recently, so just a few photos. To break up the monotony of ratlines I added the upper shrouds, futtock shrouds and backstays to the foremast before starting ratlines on the main mast. 

On 9/23/2023 at 10:26 AM, chris watton said:

The catharpins helped pull the upper shrouds in.

Thanks Chris, much appreciated. I’ve run a line across between the port and starboard catharpins on each mast both behind and in front of the mast. That’s what I think your plans show although differs from photos in the instructions - although the lines might not have been fitted yet in the photos. 

Shrouds fitted. Catharpins and ratlines next. I may be some time… 

I wasn’t familiar with catharpins before, on Grecian’s plans there’s two lines running between the brass rods on the port and starboard shrouds. On Jim’s build log photos these both seem to pass aft of the mast, but on the plans it looks like one is at the front of the catharpins and would be in front of the mast. What would be the norm for catharpins? 
 

From the instructions:

I’ve checked Lennarth Petersson’s rigging books which suggest that there should be a line in front of the mast. 

Many thanks

Steering gear and binnacle fitted and glued. Went for the binnacle opening facing forward as per the instructions. Added the cord between the stanchions around the companionway and painted the tops of the bitts white.

The masts and bowsprit on this boat were pretty straightforward on this boat without a lot of taper. All made much easier with the small Proxxon lathe. 

The sticks on this boat are long and make her quite tricky to photograph. 

This last photo has the masts and bowsprit fully fitted out with blocks, eye pins and painted. The masts are now glued in place. Everything goes together perfectly as is usual in a Vanguard model. The bowsprit isn’t glued to make her easier to work on whilst shrouds and ratlines are added. 

A very small thing that builders of Grecian need to look out for is part PE-14 which is the iron strap for the bob stay which attaches to the stem post. This part isn’t mentioned in the instructions although there is a photo and it’s in the plans. PE-14 has some marks on it which I presumed to be where to bend it 90 degrees each side of the stem post - as can be seen in the photo from the instructions below this is the wrong place and makes the bracket too wide. Having bent it there and then tried to rebend it the part disintegrated on me. I’ve improvised by adding a near square eye pin from Erycina to the middle of the stem post and the two side straps either side. I’ll add a photo later. Looks OK and will do the job. 

What an incredible model. Congratulations! 

I’ve added breach ropes to each of the guns and carronades. I don’t plan to add the training tackle as with my rope skills it would just look a mess and wouldn’t improve the model. The ropes need some Matt varnish applied and then to be shaped to hang more naturally. 
The two four pounder cannon forward don’t have a breach rope as there’s no space for eyebolts on one side of the gunport due to the cat head and also I don’t have enough eyebolts. Unlike the other guns these are not glued to the ship and I may remove them. 
Rudder chains have also been fitted. I needed to use open eyebolts from Alert to attach the chain to the hull as the individual chain links  were too small for me to cut open and then close up again. The PE open rings from the carronades fittings worked to join the chain to the PE fitting on the rudder. 

The instructions for adding the binnacle show the recessed area with the compass in facing forward. 
Is that right? I can’t see how the helmsman would see the compass to steer a course. 
Turning the binnacle round however means that the wheel mounting almost entirely blocks the recess too (see below), although it’s just about possible that the helmsman might be able to see the compass. As you can see I’ve gone for a green and black colour scheme for the skylight which is a mild deviation from the black on the prototype. 
Any thoughts or advice on this would be greatly appreciated. She’d definitely look more interesting with the binnacle facing forward as per the instructions. 
 

Next job is to fit the wheel and binnacle and rig them. 
 

Other than that the hull is almost complete. I need to add some blocks to eyebolts, stanchions around the companionway and steel wool the hull before starting masting and rigging proper. 
 

The 3D printed cutters that Vanguard include are super for this kit and my skill level where I’d struggle to do a good job planking a wooden cutter. However, they are hostage to being able to paint the interior in a faux wood colour on both the plastic, wooden and any PE parts. Another option I’m considering is whether to paint the inside of the cutter white and green like the outside - would that look odd? I’ll only include the cutter on the finished Grecian if her paint job doesn’t detract from the main vessel. 
 

A couple of pics showing how Grecian compares to Alert which is now cased. 
I still haven’t tidied up the ropes and added coils to Alert so she’s not completely finished yet. Likely I’ll do a job lot and make up rope coils for both boats at the same time. 

I’ve donated too. This is a fantastic resource and much appreciated. Thank you. Dan

Cisco, Hal,

I think that you’re both right - I am overgunning Grecian for aesthetic purposes, the kit plans do this too but to a lesser degree (16 guns - 12x carronades and 4x cannon). Chris in the instructions is very clear that Grecian only had 4x cannons and no carronades as an American privateer. That’s a choice I could have gone with, but in my opinion the build would have looked incomplete despite being historically accurate.
 

What I couldn’t get my head around was why the privateer captain / owner built a ship with 18 gunports and only mounted 4 guns. I think your explanations of how privateers were used and that looking like having more guns but remaining light to catch prizes makes a great deal of sense. 
 

With regard to mixing carronades and cannons I defer again to Chris’s research and knowledge that as a RN 10-gun schooner she would have been fitted with 8x carronades and 2x long six pounder cannons.
 

I suspect that I probably have too many cannons forward which being much heavier than carronades might upset the weight and balance of the schooner. 
 

Thank you very much for the advice and info. 
 

Dan 

On 8/15/2023 at 8:00 AM, aliluke said:

Speed definitely doesn't equal poor work in your case Dan. It looks superb. 

Thanks Alistair, unfortunately iPhone photos do lie and make her look much tidier than she is in reality! 

On 8/15/2023 at 7:58 AM, AJohnson said:

She is looking excellent Dan.  I can see why Chris said he thinks the front two gun ports were not used, I would love to know how the guns were supposed to recoil if ever fired! 😱 (unless little Carronades on slides?)

Thanks Andrew. I do wonder too why the Americans built a privateer with 18 gunports and only put 4 guns on her. I can understand being a few guns short due to cost or availability of cannons, but 14 empty gunports? 

I note that Alert also has an empty gunport forward that would be difficult to work and is almost covered by the anchor.