allanyed
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Thanks for the post David. Reading this gave me goosebumps. I can only imagine my own mind set if I was able to see and touch these artifacts. Allan
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Kev, Roger brings up a great point that was addressed in an earlier post here at MSW that you and other folks may or may not have seen. According to the Pitcairn Island Studies Center, Bounty carried three boats. Her jolly boat was leaky and could not be used and her cutter was too small for the 19 men that wanted to leave the ship, thus they used the 23 foot launch for Bligh and the other 18 men. The kit design and the contemporary design of a launch have differences. The below is a more detailed drawing of a 23 foot launch that was posted previously. It is based on several sources of contemporary information. The PDF is more clear once opened than the jpg, but both are below. Note that the anchor handling davit in the stern was not permanently in place thus was likely not on board during her famous voyage. Allan 23 Foot Launch circa 1795.PDF
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Peanut, As you are talking about the launch, not the ship, keep in mind the launch was more often powered by oars. The masts on boats were stepped and rigged on a temporary basis so rigging had to accommodate this need for temporary duty yet be seaworthy. Look at photos of contemporary models that are rigged. There is at least one really good photo in the RMG Collections site that may be of some help. https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66291 This same model is explained in some detail regarding the rigging in W. E. Mays book The Boats of Men of War on page 93. It is not high resolution but hopefully useful and you can purchase a high res version if you need one. There may be more plans and models available to study on the RMG site for which you can do a search. I would trust these before modern drawings that you might be using unless the ones you have are based on contemporary sources. Allan
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Thanks Druxey, I thought that might be the case. Allan -
I am considering buying a square hole draw plate to make very small material for the framing of the stern lights (the windows, not the lanterns). Does anyone have experience with using a square hole plate for wood and if the experience is positive, a recommended brand? I see them in a variety of size ranges and prices from under $20 to $80. In addition, based on your experience, what wood species work well? I would love to use holly for its color, but would be OK with box or castello or other similar color species. TIA Allan
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Beautifully done!! Allan
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Planking Primer.pdf
allanyed replied to rudybob's topic in Building, Framing, Planking and plating a ships hull and deck
Some would argue that you can edge bend......... to a point. Depends on the severity of the bends, the type of wood and the methodology you use. Ebony is near impossible where as holly is a breeze with many species in between. The open grained wood found in many kits are difficult to work with so may be problematic if you wish to taper and properly lay the planking. Check out the 3 part video series by Chuck Passaro then you can decide on spiling or edge bending or a combination of both. Allan Allan -
JD, they are a pain in the neck to make and glue/pin into the side of the deck beams, but look great if well done. If you leave off a few pieces of deck planking you can hang a few hammocks secured to the battens (and sleeping sailors) so they can be seen. Lavery has about a page and a half of text and layouts of hammocks on pages 180-181 in The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War. One of the drawings of the lower deck of HMS Bedford 1775 can be seen in low res on the RMG collections site as well. https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-86584 Allan
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Hi Aoi To which manufacturer are you referring? If they have a contract or agreement with a rep (Model Expo) here in the US, they are probably legally, and certainly morally, obliged to work through them. They will not keep a good rep for long if they are going to steal every customer that tries to go around this agent to save a couple bucks? Allan
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Kristyn How are you going to finish the tops of the treenails? They really should not stay sticking up as at full scale they would be a huge tripping hazard. A very well honed chisel will do the job followed by a good sanding. You can also use a vibratory mouse sander before installing them into the bulkheads. Really looking good so far. Allan
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Not too dark, not too big, really nice treenails Kristyn. Allan
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MeanSuzy1 Welcome to MSW. It would be great if you would post a little intro about yourself and a name by which we can address you in the new member forum. Regarding your project, there are numerous posts and discussions regarding glues here at MSW and there is no single answer. Most seem to prefer carpenters' glue (yellow PVA) for all wood to wood, (me included) but many others like cyanoacrylate, others epoxy, and more. I assume you have studied the numerous build logs on the same Bounty kit here at MSW as that will help you during your building process. If not, it will be a big help pointing out the plusses and minuses you will encounter including where to research additional sources of information such as proper planking techniques and more. Read five times, glue once. 😀 Allan
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Hi Dave, From Lees' Masting and Rigging the lower yard sling cleats were 1/25 the length of the yard between 1763 and 1815. If this is an important point for you, the shape is in the sketch below. The topsail yards were the same to about 1775, then were made like stop cleats set one yard diameter apart. The lower yard rope strop style to about 1840 is also shown. I agree with Glenn that wire was not used to secure any block, but for a super small scale model, I believe McNarry and others use wire at times. Allan
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It is nice seeing the hammock battens being made and secured in place. Not a common sight! Gorgeous work as always Allan
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US Merchant Marine Academy Museum, Kings Point, NY
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I am glad Sam started this thread as it is benefitting a lot of us even if he has not followed up on any of these great responses himself. Allan
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KJ, everyone has their own thoughts regarding all aspects of our hobby, none are wrong, but rather it is what you are looking for and what you like. If you want to replicate the old masters, don't use treenails. If you like the look of the treenails, go for it, but as in most aspects of model ships, err on the side of smaller, not larger. If you can get them down to the 0.75" to 1" diameter range they will probably look really good. Allan
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Hi KJ, According to Goodwin the treenails were from to 0.75 to 2". The smaller ones were normally found on the deck planking. Yours look to be on the smaller size of the range you give which is great. There a lot of models we see here at MSW with huge treenails, especially on the decks, looking really obtrusive. On the actual ships the trennals were often covered with diamond shaped cover pieces thus not visible at all. Note that contemporary models rarely, if ever, show treenails on the deck so at smaller scales better left out. Then there is the matter of when iron dumps or bolts or nails came into use on the deck planking. If anyone knows of treenail size information for the deck planking based on contemporary sources, that would be great. They are addressed as to material in contemporary contracts that I have seen but sizes are not given. Allan
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You bring up a very important tool, a contract. Whether scratch or kit, it is a great idea to look for contemporary contracts for the ship being modeled. If built in private yards such as Bellerophon at the Edward Greaves yard, there are many available at RMG and the NA in Kew. Allan
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There may be some variation for a 1901 schooner, but this MIGHT act as a guide. Working backwards, using ratios in Lees Masting and Rigging on page 164, for a 12 inch block (1" at scale) the diameter of the sheave hole was 1/8 the length of the shell, so the sheave hole would be about 0.125" (3.175mm) The sheave was 1/16 less than the sheave hole (~0.118" - 3mm) If that is the case, and the rope is as he describes at 1/10th the width of the sheave the rope would be 0.106" in diameter. This is the largest rope Syren offers on the website so large rope will need to be made by Elmina or sourced elsewhere. The blocks would likely be internally stropped and unfortunately Syren's blocks only go up to about 5/16" so Elmina may need to make his own blocks. over 5/16". Making internally stropped blocks at this large scale is really as difficult as making those for smaller scales. Ropes of Scale makes larger rope, but the larger rope is all cable laid so will not look right. Allan
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I believe Roger is correct, your model is definitely not the 72 ton Elmina. The Elmina and her sister, the 72 ton Muriel were racing yachts built in 1901 by Townsend & Downey. There is quite a history of their races in the New York Times. Allan
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KJ The only other Byrnes tool I have is the thickness sander which I have been super happy with for MANY years now. I have yet to make rope so I have not given any thought to buying his. My wish list does include his table saw once my oldie finally gives it up. Allan
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Hope yours works out, but if the time comes to buy a draw plate, avoid the cheap ones. The best one many members have found is the Byrnes plate which goes down to 0.016" (0.86" at your scale for the Endeavour.) Allan
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Various applications of 3D drawing
allanyed replied to 3Dships's topic in CAD and 3D Modelling/Drafting Plans with Software
3D You make it look easy, but after your many years of doing this, that seems logical. Not so much for us neophytes. There are a number of articles here at MSW by a number of authors in subjects from basic lines drawings to planking to making various items such as stoves. It would be SUPER if you did one with STLs of various cannon that can be downloaded and then they can be 3D printed in resin. Let me know if this would be of interest to you and I can email you 2D drawings of cannon designs and sizes from about 1675 through about 1815. Cheers Allan -
This of course does not apply to dry bending, but if soaking first, distilled water is a good idea. I have noted slight color changes (staining) from tap water on a few occasions, especially if it is a thicker piece that needs a longer soak. The water around the world varies so this may or may not be an issue everywhere and might have more to do with the type of wood than the water. A wide variety of chemicals are added to drinking water to remove various contaminants. Among them are alum, iron salts, chlorine, fluorides, and others. Just sayin' Allan
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