Boxwood and how to get it

[Gregory]

53 minutes ago, Don Case said:

Why is Boxwood so in demand for ships? Aren't there substitutes?

It became popular because of the very fine, almost invisible grain and it's carving properties.

It holds a very fine edge.

 

 

Personally, I like the look of wood grain on large areas like the hull, as I prefer not to paint.  Purists however, will decry open grain wood as being way out of scale for model ships.

Too me, boxwood looks like something besides wood, like marble or ceramic, so in that regard, I like it for decorations and

things like figureheads.

 

The price has probably at least quadrupled in the last few years, and it does not show up in models here as much as it used to.

Chuck's Cheerful and many of the early kits he sold were based on Boxwood..  So, you will find several Cheerful logs that utilize boxwood.

 

I have really grown fond of cherry as of late, but it's darker color is not appealing to a lot of folks.

[Roger Pellett]

Re:  Wefalk’s post #12 above regarding growth rate & wood density.

 

An outlier would appear to be the Lilac bushes that grow behind my house.  These grow like weeds and require pruning every two or three years to keep them under control.  The last time that they were pruned I saved some of the larger branches.  The wood is hard, dense, with no noticeable grain.  

 

Roger

[Don Case]

Also on the West Coast we have Ocean Spray (Holodiscus discolor). It's very much like Lilac on steroids. Very hard, white, straight and so dense that bone dry it sinks in salt water. It does work well with bladed tools like a plane. Like Lilac it's hard to dry. Checks like mad. 

 

I don't know why my font changed.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Don Case

[Jaager]

7 minutes ago, Don Case said:

Very hard, white, straight and so dense that bone dry it sinks in salt water. It does work well with bladed tools like a plane. Like Lilac it's hard to dry. Checks like mad.

I was able to source some Holly that was on the hoof.  In order to defeat the competing Blue Mold invasion I immediately cut it into 1" billets and removed to bark, and sealed the ends with a thick coating of leftover latex house paint.

I purchased a 4' x 8' sheet of 1" foil faced house insulation foam. I cut it into 4 x 4' pieces to make the 4 sides of a box.  It does not need to be either strong or tight fitting.  I fit it into an open shelf in my garage.  The ends were made from the 2 x 2 x 1" project Styrofoam that Home Depot sells.   The foil was on the inside face.   A couple of ceramic surface mount light fixtures and a  200W and a 100W incandescent light bulb generated enough heat - often 200W was enough.  A surplus computer muffin fan on one end was sufficient to exhaust the heated humid air.  I had a digital - remember the highest temp thermometer - to make sure it did not get too hot.   I stickered the billets.  A probe moisture meter sufficient for our needs is not expensive.  3 months was more than enough time.  For a temp, I just guessed about a temp that was above what the mold could survive.  Too much heat and the wood may case harden instead of allowing the water in the middle of a billet to migrate out.  There is probably a Zen type factor in all this.

 

You may be able to stay ahead of the checking with your "Lilac" by using a similar setup.  It will still be a month or so before the sap starts rising, if you wish to try this year.  Washington state appears to have a significant Apple growing base.  You are maybe not too far north for there to be Apple trees?  Apple wood is King.  But the only real way to get it is to harvest your own.  The hot box might save you the best part of year in getting a dry supply to use.  

 

Not far south of you is a supplier of Pacific Madrone. (Portland).  The wood reads like it can easily substitute for Pear or Black Cherry.  It is a bear to season.  It requires a specialized kiln operation.  It is not a DIY species per my reading.  It also wants to be picked over in the yard to get the color and grain that is desired.  

[algonzales94]

On 1/25/2016 at 8:40 AM, Mark P said:

Greetings everyone;

 

I just thought that my experience with obtaining boxwood may be of interest to some other members.

 

I live in the countryside,  and I have mentioned to friends and acquaintances that I am interested in obtaining supplies of boxwood.

 

This paid off for me in Autumn 2014,  when one of them told me that he knew a gardener on a large country estate,  who was felling a couple of box trees and had offered to let me have the wood (even better,  FOC,  though I gave him something)

 

Naturally,  I bit his hand off,  and carted them off home.  I had to band-saw them down and then put the planks into sticks to season,  but it was well worth the time and effort.

 

However,  this set me to thinking,  and I contacted a very large country estate not too far away,  and soon discovered that they had a whole plantation of box trees,  and I could take some away at the cost of about £33 per 100kg! (220lbs for our friends over the Pond)  All I had to do was mark the trees,  and they would fell them for me to collect (I can tell you one thing,  fresh-felled boxwood is incredibly heavy for its size)

 

Soon there were more planks in sticks,  drying out.

 

Then today,  another contact,  a gardener on another country estate,  called me,  and said that he had just felled a box tree,  and would I like to take the logs away.  Needless to say,  these are now in my shed awaiting ripping down.

 

So I now have a good supply of boxwood seasoning,  and although none of the planks are lumber sized,  and many are quite small,  I anticipate a use for most.  Another plus is that I can take advantage of curved logs (and boxwood has many of them!) to band-saw them up in a way that gives me compass timber,  which will be very useful. 

 

So if anyone is looking for boxwood,  try spreading the word,  or contacting some nearby estates,  and you may be successful.

 

Happy modelling!

 

Mark P

@Mark P

 

Would you ever be open to shipping any of your boxwood to others? I am across the pond here in the US and have been trying to source some for some antique restoration. It’s incredibly hard to find true European Boxwood to match the original. 
 

I would pay for shipping plus whatever you found reasonable. 

[Mark P]

Good Evening Al;

 

I have a reasonable selection of timber now, most of it well-seasoned; however, much of it is relatively small stuff, fine for model ships, but not so good for furniture perhaps. If you need long lengths for inlay strings or bandings, I don't really have anything suitable. For repairs to marquetry work, I might be able to help, but I would not want to part with much of it, as I cannot be sure of future supplies!

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[algonzales94]

Thanks to much for the response @Mark P!

I guess I could've been a little more specific. I am a woodworker and sometimes collect old wooden moulding planes, I hear they're a dime a dozen there but here they can be quite collectable. Anyhow, sometimes these tools are in decent condition with the exception of these narrow "quirks" (slivers of boxwood placed in the sole of the plane), which can be worn/broken/chipped/missing. You can see one circled in the photo.

 

So I do not need large pieces, maybe something 6"x2"x1". I wanted to use European boxwood to match the original materials as much as possible, also for its exceptional denseness and smoothness. I understand if you want to hold onto your supply though!

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[allanyed]

Just curious, but how old is the original material?   If it is very old, I would think color matching will be impossble.

Allan

[algonzales94]

@allanyed. The specific photo was just a random photo from the internet I pulled.

 

As for the planes I am looking to restore, they are anywhere from ~150-250 years old (1780-1880's). I mostly want to restore them back to usable condition vs trying to make the repair seem less. This is a pet project to put them back to use within my workshop vs any real attempt to restore them for value/reselling.

 

-A

[allanyed]

Al,

I now understand what you want to do and can relate in part.   I have a set of planes from my paternal grandfather who was a cabinet maker from apprentice as a teen to doing  restorations for museums and private individuals in his retirement years back in the 1960's and '70's.   These are not quite so old as yours, but now probably over100 years old.    have and use his workbench from circa 1920 and all will be passed down when the time comes.  Imagine the stories these old tools of ours could tell if they could talk.  

Allan

[Jaager]

17 minutes ago, algonzales94 said:

I mostly want to restore them back to usable condition vs trying to make the repair seem less.

I would guess that there are more than a few objects from the past that were subjected to the sort of plan that you have for these planes.   Then later when the objects came to valued by collectors who place a premium on pristine original condition and patina and such,  come across ones that have been 'repaired and improved for use in the modern era'  - well the least of their reactions would be to use a photo of the "improve it and use it" as a dartboard.

 

These old tools were probably hand made.   Give a thought to backing your ambition to a previous crossroad. 

Have the originals be plans for you to make complete and exact replicas - using currently available materials - for your use.  Or buy the best quality modern versions from commercial sources for your use.  Then store the originals under the best stasis chamber conditions that you can manage  and leave the restoration to a professional -  or apprentice yourself to a professional in restoration before you do it yourself.

 

Who knew that Buxus sepervirens  would become a unicorn?  Back in 1972 when I started in this - and it was available to buy from hardwood dealers?

[algonzales94]

Thanks for the thoughts Al and Jaager!

 

I will take them into account.

 

Best,

andrew

[Tim Holt]

Hi @algonzales94

 

I also have a lot of those kinds of planes and have used them quite a bit to make molding for hand-done furniture.  I think from my perspective as a user of them who uses them for their purpose, fixing and correcting issues like worn down or missing boxwood sections is OK.  It's like making a new blade for one that's been badly treated over the years.  Restoring these planes to their ability to once again create unique and definitely not machine made moldings is a good thing.  Better they be used and appreciated for their original purpose than tossed in a bin with missing parts and no sense of value in some antique store.  

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Here is what I have left from boxwood. 

The biggest part  which is good for a figurehead, was paid 5 pounds ... probably 25 years ago in Canada.

It is sad to see that boxwood is harder and harder to get.

 

This is a fact that boxwood is perfect for carving figurehead because the grain can retain the edge of the smallest details.

 

Boxwood was largely use in France and UK. There are probably other exotic woods which could be suitable for carving. I do not think that fruitwood which are often harder than our domestic hardwood are suitable for carving. I tried apple tree but it does not compare to boxwood. It could be interesting to make some try in species like ebony, pernambuco, may be bloodwood and surely some others.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Old planes not fit for 'restoration' can be had at reasonable prices on the U.S. east coast at antiques marts ... Southeastern PA has many  in an arc well-away from Philadelphia.  Useable boxwood for model ship work can be cut from these plane bodies.  Nes pas?

[dvm27]

One of the finest of ship model carvers, August Crabtree, used Whitethorn for his exquisite models. He tended to source local materials and did the majority of his work in the Pacific northwest. I wonder if this wood is available?

[Jaager]

13 minutes ago, dvm27 said:

August Crabtree, used Whitethorn

I long ago contacted The Mariners Museum about this and they identified Crabtree's carvings as being Washington Hawthorn -  Given how trees seem to be, I would guess that any species of Hawthorn would do.  As with Boxwood now, the trick is to find any.

[Wahka_est]

Hi all,

 

I have one contact that came trough my supplier, who offers European boxwood.

He offered airdried logs, at least 5y old, D7-10cm and lengths 80-150cm.

He should be located in Germany. Here are also photos.

 

I you are interested them pm and will share his contacts or we can make bigger order to him as a group.

 

Note that i dont have any ties to this supplier and can not vouch for him. 

If there is request for true boxwood for reasonable amount then also Hobbymill can include it into stock.

 

With best regards,

Vahur

Hobbymill.EU

 

 

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

I am not familiar with importing wood from another country.

I tried ounce with African boxwood and it was a lot of trouble. If I remember correctly, he said that he could not sell with the bark, because of insects, so there was additional fees for debarking.

[Wahka_est]

1 hour ago, Gaetan Bordeleau said:

I am not familiar with importing wood from another country.

I tried ounce with African boxwood and it was a lot of trouble. If I remember correctly, he said that he could not sell with the bark, because of insects, so there was additional fees for debarking.

Yes some woods are really hard to import, even if you have all needed paperwork.

Easier is to bring in sheets and strips as then they are modelling parts.

 

Vahur

[davyboy]

I notice that a number of these small logs have a gray marking showing on the cut ends.  That looks like the tree they come from had the Boxwood disease. I have the same marking on some of the Boxwood I salvaged from a container of firewood a few years ago. I know this came from a tree that was felled because it had this disease. It's ok to use in hidden or painted parts of structures but I wouldn't recommend it for exposed planking.

 

Dave 

[Mark P]

Good Afternoon Al;

 

Thanks for the explanation of what you need; sounds like a decent project, certainly. I did not keep a lot of stock at 1" thickness, only some for some carvings, but I will look through and see what I can find. 

 

Dave's comment in the previous post is worth noting. Some of the boxwood I have has similar grey or even black markings in it, often rendering it unusable in terms of colour. Not sure if the fungus is still active, though, or if it dies once the wood dries out.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[davyboy]

Hi Mark,I did some reading on this Fungus. One of the articles I read said the spores can live about 1 year in soil and up to 6 years in plant remains. I expect your wood is still infected with the spores. Any waste wood,cut-offs or sawdust I would burn if I were you.

 

Regards,

 

Dave 

[algonzales94]

Didn't know I would spark such lively discussion!

 

@Wahka_est I would love to arrange getting the wood to the US, but I can only imagine the fees and import taxes to get anything as large as yours over here. Do you know if what you have is Buxus sempervirens? That is the specific european variety I need. I honestly don't need more than a log or two 15cm thick and 30cm long (roughly speaking).

 

@Snug Harbor Johnny Your suggestion is probably the most viable to be honest. I think I have a tool seller in the UK (where there is an over abundance of boxwood planes) that will be including a couple in a upcoming shipment. Unfortunately I live in California and Antique Malls don't exist here in the same way as back East.

 

-Andrew

[Mark P]

Dave: thanks for the advice; I will do as you suggest with anything a bit dubious. Some of the boxwood I have now had for over 5 years, so there shouldn't be a lot of life left in the fungus now. However, I have always  burnt all the bits I did not keep, and all the sawdust too; so that will hopefully minimise any risk. 

 

Andrew: the pictures posted by Vahur certainly look absolutely identical to the logs I got in England. It looks like Buxus sempervirens to me. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[Wahka_est]

Hi all,

 

I would say that safest way to buy true EU boxwood is to buy exact piece not logs.

Like many e-shops offer - they have photographed exact piece and then you really see what you get.

Buying raw timber so to say is always a risk. There are standardized quality that has been agreed and then there is quality for ship models .

Example pearwood i received month ago - 20-30% of that is not suitable for ship models unless its painted .

 

Import fees with transport costs might make it yes quite expensive.

 

Vahur

Hobbymill.EU

[Jolley Roger]

You can also try Rarewoods USA, they sell Buxus Macowanii, aka Cape boxwood which is very similar to European boxwood.

 

 

[Mark P]

One small point regarding the use of European boxwood logs: the trees are normally not large (not the ones that survive in most areas, anyway) and rarely contain much in the way of long straight pieces. Although it is easy enough to obtain a good number of pieces which are certainly straight enough to provide long planks, a good many pieces will have curving grain, which is very useful for a framed model. Whilst it is not necessary to have the grain following the curves of the timbers, it will create a stronger structure if this can be done.

 

All the best,

 

Mark 

[Joe100]

I purchase my boxwood from http://www.modelerssawmill.com/milled-wood-sheets.php

 

I’ve almost fought a duel over the superiority of boxwood, but that’s another story for another time!

[Hank]

I just listed under the Traders/Dealers/etc. forum boxwood sheets for sale. If interested, check it out!

 

Hank