Power Tools for a Fully Framed Build

[grsjax]

As I suggested above, perhaps the administrators start a sort of permanent file, where one can compare the different capabilities and capacities. I agree, for making jigs and attachments for your machines, a bigger machine would be handy. But you will find that is always a 'catch 22' - you always better have a bigger machine for making attachments for your smaller machine. But, how did they do in the old days, when there were no bigger and more precise machines ? Sometimes it just need ingenuity and patience and you can turn out good stuff with smaller machines. As said earlier, if you can't have a range of machines, you have to make a trade-off between your needs.

 

In principle, a big machine is more stable, has less vibrations and, therefore, the potential for higher precision. This, however, requires that it is well-made and well-adjusted. The problem is that adjustment costs time and, hence, money. This is were the Chinese makers cut corners in order to be able to sell their products at competitive prices. Compare a modern-day Chinese mill or lathe with a precision machine of the 1940s or 1950s (the pre CN- and CNC-age) coming from Switzerland. On the latter the slides move like silk in spite of the large masses involved, because the ways have been scraped-in and not just milled. In order to get equivalent handling for working on small parts, you have to opt for a smaller machine - unless you are a master in machine adjustment.

 

BTW, I am working steel on my watchmaking lathes and mills. It is a pain at times and takes a long time because I can only take light cuts, but with perseverance I manage to most things I want to do. The same machine, on the other hand, is ways better than a big Chinese machine will be, on small parts. With careful adjustment, the Sherline or Proxxon machines are almost as good.

All true.  However there is a big difference between a Harbor Freight machine and LMS or MM machine.  The difference is in the quality control.  The Sieg factory will manufacture a lathe or mill to what ever level of precision a customer wants.  HF buys run of the factory machines that may or may not have been assembled and checked adequately.  MM and LMS buy machines manufactured to their specs and check the QC themselves resulting in a much better product.  Not to say these machines can't be improved but out of the box they are pretty good.  My MM lathe has hand scraped ways and came needing only minor adjustments to be up and running.

 

Your observation that you always need a bigger machine for something is very true.  That said it is a good idea to get a machine that will both do precision work and can handle larger pieces (with in reason).  I don't think I could reliably do 1/10000" work on my lathe but with the proper setup I could handle 5/10000".  But then how often do you need that kind of precision?  1/1000" difference is to small to see with the naked eye and would be more than adequate for model building.

 

Another thing I like about the larger machines is that you can easily modify them to improve performance.  Low cost mods like swapping the roller bearings in the head stock for tapered roller bearings is an example.  Also the Seig 7x lathes can cut left handed threads and with a few extra change gears can cut threads from 4/in to 240/in.  I haven't seen any of the small machines that can do either.

 

An alternative to the Seig lathes are the older Atlas/Craftsman 6" lathes.  They can be found for sale (at least here in the states) for reasonable prices.

[tlevine]

As a mill neophyte I will tell you my approach to purchasing a mill and its accessories.    

 

First, I held off buying one as long as I could.  As already mentioned, both the mill and its accessories are expensive.  I finally broke down when it was time to make the capstan for Atalanta.  I knew there was no way I could accurately do it any other way.  I felt Sherline was the only way to go after reading all of the comments and having previous experience with their lathe.  Next, I decided what my "must have right now" accessories were.  Everyone has different needs and there is no point in purchasing items that will gather dust.  As I learn more and expand my skills I will assuredly buy more accessories.  My list is as follows:

• sensitive drill (turns the mill into a dead accurate, pin-vise equipped drill press)
• mill vise
• rotary table
• tilt table
• assorted mills and collets to accept them
• 4-jaw self-centering chuck

I hope this is of some help.

[dgbot]

I have found the Sherine more than adequate. for what I have done.  From brass ,wood, to steel.  As was stated before it is not designed for heavy production .  I remember a rush job where we had to work some steel.  However our LeBlond blew something so they asked me to work on it at home.  I was able to turn it to shape but the job took awhile.  The Leblond had the power where I could hog the material quite a bit to save time.  On the Sherline I had to take minot cuts to get the job done.  Remember this is a hobby for pleasure.  and The tools you use will do the job if you take your time and learn how to use them efficiently.  As Tim Allen would say MORE POWER  not

David B

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Size for a lathe or a mill in model ship building is not a matter because you work on woods mainly and on few occasions on brass .

Proxxon is the only one that I know who qualify for Speed for the mills because of the speed. Of course you can mill at 5000 rpm but in comparison

it is like finishing at #80  in comparison with #600, wood particles will also be smaller and it will chip less.

 

Unless you want to mill aluminum or harder materials,  tool room machines are not required.

The difference between  a miniature lathe and a toolroom lathe is a pass of .001'' in comparison  of .01'',  10 times faster

 

A mill is not really necessary, you can easily go without it. To use it to make notches is not a real good thing, it needs a longer time to do it because it leaves round corners, it faster to do it by hand only.

 

For the lathe it is a different story; it would be harder to go without a lathe for a model ship builder, the cheapest alternative being to use a drill.

[ChrisLBren]

Thanks for the advice everyone - after sleeping on it - I may hold off on the mill for now.  I think a smarter investment is a high end set of chisels and a sharpening system.  I've got my Byrnes Sanders/Table saw, a Preac Saw, a Wood River Spindle Sander and a Delta Scroll Saw.  Eventually I will need to buy a lathe

[dvm27]

Does the Delta scroll saw have a tilting table top? I have a Dewalt scroll saw and use this feature quite often.

[ChrisLBren]

Hey Greg,

My Delta does have a tilting table - so one less tool to buy...

[ASAT]

Chris, that is a good decision, I owned the MF-70 and to tell the truth, I rarely used it, the setup, alignment, test runs, mistakes etc. were so time consuming that it was just easier to do by hand with good chisels, knifes, pin vise, etc... I also sold my taig lathe after realizing how steep the learning curve is to be competent on a lathe, there are easier ways to do dowel tapering and accessories like cannon, dead eyes, belaying pins and other lathe products are readily available from high quality vendors and some are venturing into custom design and laser work. I guess I am just not a machinist. I am however in the market for a nice proxxon precision rotary tool though, much more versatile and multi purpose. Could even get an x-y table and stand if you wanted to mill with it and a few of their models have good bearing supported spindles to stand up to the side loads. Just another option....

 

Lou

[tlevine]

Chris, I agree with you.  A good set of chisels and a sharpening system is much more useful.  Don't forget the micro-chisels as well unless you plan on making your own.  The best sharpening system is the Veritas (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078,51868).  Good chisels are expensive but worth their price.  

[wefalck]

Depends what you are doing, but I couldn't live without a lathe anymore. With a vertical slide you can even do small and light milling jobs. Apart from the hand-held power-drill that costs very little these days, a lathe (with collets) would be on top of my list, if I would start out fresh.

[WackoWolf]

Lee Valley is the way to go for the chisels and sharpening system, that is one of my next toys a good sharpening system since I have the chisels.

[Haliburton]

WackoWolf, any particular chisel set at Lee Valley that you recommend?

[WackoWolf]

When I pick up my stuff a few months ago I had grab The chisels that the Dockyard Model Company had, in fact a few of us grab them while we could still get them the company that made them went out of business, and the company that still had them in stock were selling out not even sure if Lee Valleys has any left. But do understand I get a good amount of my stuff from Lee Valley like Planes, Clamps and what ever catches my eye. I am not the only one that buys from them. Check out there web site and have them send you there catalogs, believe me looking through there catalogs is like being a kid at Christmas time all over again LOL. If you look in the tread about what have you receive today go back some and you will see the pictures of the ones that I have gotten, I spent some money for what I got but I got most of them. I still have this pictures of one of the orders for the chisels, I know I made more than one order. Hmm looking at the picture maybe that was the whole order, but I am sure I got something else, old age setting in lol.

Edited October 13, 2016 by WackoWolf

[Haliburton]

Thanks! I'm fortunate to live only an hour away from their store so will drop in!

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

These  small chisels are not bad. They could have benefit from a better quality steel  for more rigidity. Also a bigger handle would be  beneficial to give more control to the chisel.

 

To have a main sharpening system is the beginning. Personally, I prefer a side coated diamond wheel; fast, efficient and giving a nice finish. But this is not enough,  the blade needs some finishing to enhance  and increase  the sharpening, a fine water stone is good for the next step.

For the final touch, a leather stop can give a little plus.

[tlevine]

When I bought my regular chisels I went to the woodworking sites and looked for their recommendations.  Lie-Nielsen, Two Cherries and Stanley Sweetheart were names that came up a lot.  I then went to Amazon, looked for the best prices and ended up with a combination of Two Cherries and Stanley chisels.  I am very pleased with them but keep in mind that quality chisels are not inexpensive.  They will, however, last a lifetime if well maintained.

[PamW]

If anyone has questions regarding anything Sherline.....I am more than happy to help.

 

Pamela

[ChrisLBren]

Those are the brands I'm looking at Toni - I like Lie Nielsen and Stanleys as the cheaper option since they're both in Imperial - the Two Cherries are nice too

[grsjax]

As said the price of chisels and planes has a relationship to the quality.  However what is important is the quality of the steel used.  I purchased a set of cheap chisels to use for rough work and found that although the finish was poor the steel was very good.  After reworking the cutting edges and sharpening they turned out to be very good chisels.  The set of 5 chisels cost me about $5 at HF on sale.  Take away here is that if you are on a budget and willing to do some work on the chisels and plane irons you can get some decent tools at low cost.

[ChrisLBren]

My wife bought me the Lie Nielsen chisels at 1/8, 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 for my birthday along with a leather roll to store them !

 

I'll purchase the Veritas Sharpening System myself - maybe I won't need a mill for a while....

[ChrisLBren]

Look what showed up last night - these tools are so well crafted and balanced - can't wait to get them sharpened/honed

[Jack H]

Hi ChrisLBren   A CNC engraving may solve most of your work Including mill\ drill\cut\ turn... If you have the relevant software knowledge

4_axis simultaneous_motioned used for cannon or head figure...

 

[Mike Y]

Hjx, that fully framed full-CNC model looks fantastic! Do you want to open a build log? Please please please!

[Jack H]

Mike Y,That's my test project and there are some specifics need to be improved.The blog Maybe released after the project is completed.The project of Zeehaen  is some preparation or test for HMS Cumberland 1774 -i want to make my drawings by 2d/3d technology and CNC engraving machine to process parts.

[Mike Y]

Mike Y,That's my test project and there are some specifics need to be improved.The blog Maybe released after the project is completed.The project of Zeehaen  is some preparation or test for HMS Cumberland 1774 -i want to make my drawings by 2d/3d technology and CNC engraving machine to process parts.

 

hjx, it is much more fun to share the progress - please start the log while the project is not yet completed! I am sure lots of people would be interested in a CNC build. Even a tiny photos you attached look excellent!

 

P.S: Chris, sorry for skewing your discussion! 

Edited December 18, 2016 by Mike Y