HMS Bellona 1760 by SJSoane - Scale 1:64 - English 74-gun - as designed

[druxey]

The extension to the standard does run up in a similar curve to the lower rail. It extends right up to the top of the hair bracket scroll. Behind the figure there are three solid layers; the two hair brackets on the outside sandwiching the extension piece. See my sketch superimposed on your drawing as an approximation.

[SJSoane]

With the head drawing now behind me, I am carrying on with planking the channel wales. I just hit my first gunport for the upper deck, and realized I don't know if the stop or rebate for the upper gun ports are the same as for the gundeck ports--i.e., 3". Has anyone seen a specification for the rebates reducing in width as we progress up from the gundeck through the upper deck to the quarterdeck?

 

Mark

[druxey]

Steel, alas, is silent on upper deck port stops. Presumably they are similar to those on the lower deck. (Middle deck stops are as for the lower deck on three deckers.)

[garyshipwright]

Mark, Fincham's  says in his book, Fincham's Ship -Building, Port Stops are the ends and edges of the planks left round the ports, from one and a half to two and a quarter inches from the sides of the timbers and upper and lower parts of the sill, to receive the port-lids and half -ports. You can find this on page 138 reprinted by the Ship Model Society of Rode Island 1933. Sounds like the stops no matter what deck they were on was always  a inch and half to two and a quarter inches.  Gary

[SJSoane]

Thanks, druxey and Gary. I was having so much fun planking without dealing with gunports, and now here they are back again!🙂

 

Mark

 

 

 

[druxey]

Be happy it's not a three decker!

[SJSoane]

There was a time I thought I should have done a three decker, and now grateful I did not. I increasingly look wistfully at the frigates, sloops, etc. with one deck. I might have had a better chance of finishing one of those in my lifetime!

 

I did not appreciate how dreary the planking becomes after a while. I recall reading Longridge's book on the Victory many years ago, which seemed to suggest that you just rip out planks of the correct thickness and width, and then bend them into place. I don't see how he did that. My hull requires spiling every single plank and custom fitting it. Because of the varying tumblehome, the planks vary in width along the total length of a strake; no way a single width blank could ever work.

 

Oh, well, plug along--or maybe plank along....

 

Mark

[garyshipwright]

Shoot Mark, wait till you get to the curve knee's of the upper deck, its a lot of fun. At least the planking is on the out side. Working in side the hull is a back breaker. The gun ports on alfred took me am thinking around 10 years give or take another 5 years. At the moment am working on adding the tiller and sweep and the upper deck beams which seems in order to go one step forward you have to  work on two to three beams get them all notch out and finally glue one in place but still it is a lot of fun. Gary

[dvm27]

1 hour ago, SJSoane said:

I recall reading Longridge's book on the Victory many years ago, which seemed to suggest that you just rip out planks of the correct thickness and width, and then bend them into place. I don't see how he did that.

The last photos I have of Longridge's Victory in the Science Museum showed significant separation of the planks in several areas, Mark. Maybe your properly planked hull with with non-stressed planks will fare better in 80 years.

 

[druxey]

I suspect that, ambient conditions the model was kept in aside, you are correct, Greg.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Gary, your Alfred project has always inspired me to keep going and do it well; I will work on regaining my patience!

 

Greg and druxey, very interesting observation on Longridge's plank separation. If he really did use constant width blanks, he must have really cranked some of those into place. And even then, I would assume that he would have faired the upper edge after installation of each strake, just to get them down to the right width at various places on the hull.

 

druxey, did Longridge's Victory move from place to place with lack of environmental control? I recall him writing about storing it in a seaside fortification during the war to avoid bombs, and finding a fine mould on the surface when he recovered it after the war. That could not have been good for it, to start!

 

Mark

[Mark P]

Good Evening Everyone;

 

I have seen the same as Greg, pictures with some significant movement in the planking of the Victory model. I can't remember where they were, but there is a video on youtube from 2008, before the Museum had an attack of political correctness. 

 

See a still below from it. This will encourage you, Mark!

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

 

[druxey]

Yes, the Victory model, hull only, was lodged underground during the war for protection. Longridge mentioned that there was mold on the surface when it was resurrected after the war for rigging. I'm sure that that didn't help. I saw the model prominently on display at the Science Museum in the 1960's and the model looked good. It was in a prominent position at the top of a staircase then. In the '70's gaps and cracks were beginning to appear. I assume they were partly due to low humidity. I suppose the worsening condition of the model since may be due to wood movement and glue failure.

[SJSoane]

Wow, thanks, Mark. At least temporarily, my planking is staying in place better than that. Only time will tell, of course!

 

Longridge was always my gold standard, sobering to see how time might treat our efforts. The surface also looks somewhat rough in the photo, and I recall him writing about polishing the finish.

 

druxey, any idea what kind of glue Longridge had available to him at the time?

 

Mark

[druxey]

That is a very good question, Mark. I don't know as I was not at his shoulder (now that would have been an education!) but common glues back then were Seccotine - a fish glue, I believe -  and hide glue.

[Mark P]

Good Morning;

 

Yet no matter how good or otherwise the glues available to Longridge were, they would not have been any less effective than those used by the Georgian and earlier modellers, whose beautiful creations continue to entrance us over two centuries later. The surviving models are generally in much better condition than the much more recent model of the Victory.  So the present condition of this model is probably due to either poor storage, poor choice of timber, or to the creation of stress in the timber by forcing it into position (or a combination of any or all of these)

 

It is otherwise a beautiful and accomplished model, so carry on as you are, Mark, and no doubt in 250 years, your model will still be a source of wonder to all who see her.

 

I remember a very effective wood glue called 'Cascamite', which was based, I believe, on pine resin, and had to be mixed with water. It was extremely strong. I believe is first appeared in the forties, a bit too late for Dr Longridge, unfortunately.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[shipman]

I saw the Longridge model just before the museum removed the 'shipping hall' and it was looking sad.

'Cascamite'....yes, it came as a white powder which you mixed water with. In 1969, as a schoolboy, I made a mahogany 'coffee table' entirely put together with it. The top was made of two wide planks glued edge to edge. All these years later it still looks as I made it, despite all the abuse it's had.

[SJSoane]

shipman, was that the large hall of models in the National Maritime Museum before the awful renovation? And was the Longridge model in that hall? That NMM hall was one the greatest places I ever remember experiencing; you needed days to look at it all. What a tragedy for all of us it is gone.

 

Here is a photo of the first strake of the channel wale complete, on the port side. You can see how much the tumblehome straightens up towards the stern (compare the angle of the ports to the angle of the door to the quarter gallery) and the strake reverses its curve compared to the main wale below, causing the notable variation in plank widths.

 

Mark

 

[druxey]

You are thinking of Neptune Hall in Greenwich. The Longridge model was in the Science Museum, South Kensington.

[SJSoane]

Some other life activities got in the way of the model for a while. I am grabbing a few moments in the shop from time to time, and here is an update.

 

Planking continues, and I am refining how to do this as efficiently as possible both for time and for materials consumed. I started ripping planks off a blank wide enough for later spiling of the individual planks. But this turned out to waste a lot of wood that was initially cut too wide for the final plank. So I then made manila file templates for each plank in the second strake of the channel wales:

 

Then I laid these out on the blank port and starboard of each piece next to each other to avoid different curves wasting more wood (I will flip the starboard ones when fitting):

 

 

These are now cut out on a scroll saw, and ready for sanding to size and fitting:

 

 

Meanwhile, I have been thinking about the carvings on the head and stern, since I took the time to draw them out earlier. They are going to be small, particularly on the stern, as seen by the mechanical pencil on the drawings:

 

 

 

Will I be able to make them look anything like the original? Daunting!

 

All for now,

 

Mark

[druxey]

Remember the trick of making a maquette in modeling clay first before carving. It really helps to sort out any problems in 3D ahead of committing to wood.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, druxey, I am going to break out the clay today and see what is what with this maquette process!

 

I forgot to attach the following image yesterday, showing the first strake of the channel wale complete on the starboard side. Work progresses on the second strake on the port side.

 

Mark

 

 

[michael mott]

Your model certainly look like it will last many hundreds of years mark.

 

Michael

 

[dvm27]

Your beautiful run of planking and ports with nary a wave or undulation to be seen reminds me of...the Navy Board models I worshipped as a teenager at the Naval Academy. Although the original model shipwrights might harumph at the amount of time it's taken you to get this far I'm sure they would wholeheartedly approve of the result!

[SJSoane]

Thanks so much, Michael and Greg. I am sure I would have been fired many years ago if I was an apprentice to an 18th century ship model builder. Can't earn my keep!

 

I had to spend a night in a hotel earlier this week, and took the opportunity to try making a maquette of the sculptures on the stern of the Bellona. Even though I made this at twice the scale of the model itself (3/8" = 1'-0" instead of 3/16" = 1'-0"), I still did not have clay modeling tools small enough; and the clay was too soft and deflecting. So another round needed with better tools and clay. But this did give me a sense of what it is like to shape in 3 dimensions, and to see the figure itself in 3 dimensions. An entirely different world for me!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

[garyshipwright]

Mark you could look in to getting some dental tools that might be small enough to help you  do the carving. Gary 

[druxey]

A pretty respectable first attempt, I'd say. I find it easier to make maquettes at x4 size, in your case ¾" = 1' 0".

[SJSoane]

A small update. I finished the first two strakes of the channel wales, and I am moving on to the 3rd and last. However, the first plank at the bow is cut thin because the small deck at the beakhead bulkhead sits horizontally, not according to the sheer of the profile and the rest of the planking. But this little deck also has the same roundup as the upper deck over which it hovers.

So, what is the actual line of the upper edge of this last plank? To figure this out, I temporarily installed the beam at the aft edge of the small deck, and also the first beam in the head timber structure. The deck needs to align with both of these. I then measured down from the temporary deck plank shown here, to the top of the previous plank, to determine the width of the third plank at the bow. The deck is actually rabbeted down from the top of these beams, so I will have to cut down the thickness of the deck planking as well.

 

I should have widened the second plank to reach up to this edge, but I didn't really think this through at the time. No problem, because a  thick batten used to mount the grating over the head will eventually cover this joint.

 

A fun diversion from planking!

 

Mark

 

[shipman]

On 6/2/2020 at 4:50 PM, druxey said:

You are thinking of Neptune Hall in Greenwich. The Longridge model was in the Science Museum, South Kensington.

Druxey is correct. The neptune Hall was a bit creepy, with the dim lighting and the noisiest bare board floor in the world!

The Science Museum seemed vast. Such a wide variety of periods covered from sail and steam.

Anyone know what happened to their star model of the 'Prince'? Hope the evident woodworm infestation had been arrested.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Gary and druxey, when I get another spare slot of time I will try another maquette, this time larger. I am also awaiting shipment of carving chisels from Mihail Kirsanov, which by all accounts on this website are the perfect tools for undertaking miniature carving.

 

I will finish the last strake of the channel wales, and then put aside planking for a while. Carving will be a nice contrast to the tedium of planking!

 

Shipman, I remember walking through the Neptune Hall back in the late 1970s. It was the first maritime museum I had ever seen (I grew up almost a thousand miles from an ocean). I was overwhelmed by row after row of models; like a kid in a candy store, I rushed from one model to the next, and then back again to favorites. I could not get enough. And therefore how disappointing when the museum switched to "interactive general public" mode years later. In light of your question about the Prince, I wonder if anyone has published where individual models from Greenwich and the Science Museum are now located, not just the museum location, but also whether they are in storage or on public display?

 

Mark