USS Tennessee 1869 by Keith Black - scale 1:120 - Wood Hull Screw Frigate - ex Madawaska 1865

[BrianK]

On the subject of magnifying glasses, I am not a fan of the headband style. I do not wear prescription glasses but at age 57 I do now use reading glasses. A Jeweler I know turned me on to the type of magnifiers I have been using for more than 10 years: Telesight half-frame magnifying glasses. They flip up out of the way, and come in different magnifications. Very comfortable -- not heavy. http://www.telesightmagnifiers.com/catalog/i169.html

 

They make a full frame version for your RX lenses if needed, and a clip on version.

 

Also available on ebay....

 

BrianK

[ChiefClanker]

Thank you, Brian.  

[rwiederrich]

23 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Thank you, Lynn. I've been meaning to say how indispensable this tool has become. I don't know how one would do off ship rigging without one or something similar. It comes in so handy for other uses as well. 

See Keith...you're doing as I do...with that workmate.  It's sweet huh?

Off model work for the masts/yards is the only way to go if you want to keep from breaking everything.  Just sit at your bench and easily reach and work on all the rigging aspects.

 

Great job for sure.  The scale is far too small to tie knots for the ratlines....just glue them on.  They will look great.  That's all l do, then I paint the glue marks black.  Looks like scale tar.  (Given up secrets)

 

Rob

Edited February 23, 2022 by rwiederrich

[TBlack]

11 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

 

Great job for sure.  The scale is far too small to tie knots for the ratlines....just glue them on.  They will look great.  That's all l do, then I paint the glue marks black.  Looks like scale tar.  (Given up secrets)

 

Rob

That's what I was hoping Keith was going to do. I've done it several times on small scale. BTW, I'm delighted that Rob, who is much more accomplished than I, agree on this small aspect.

Tom

[My Fathers Son]

On 2/23/2022 at 3:19 PM, rwiederrich said:

See Keith...you're doing as I do...with that workmate.  It's sweet huh?

Off model work for the masts/yards is the only way to go if you want to keep from breaking everything.  Just sit at your bench and easily reach and work on all the rigging aspects.

 

Great job for sure.  The scale is far too small to tie knots for the ratlines....just glue them on.  They will look great.  That's all l do, then I paint the glue marks black.  Looks like scale tar.  (Given up secrets)

 

Rob

I am definitely paying the price of not following this advice and have learned my lesson the hard way.

 

Both yours and Keith's yards are works of art.

 

Simon

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, My Fathers Son said:

I am definitely paying the price of not following this advice and have learned my lesson the hard way.

 

Both yours and Keith's yards are works of art.

 

Simon

I’ve owned my workmate for over 30 years and have built my ships masts this way since I owned mine.   So much detail can be done this way…..easily and safely.

 

Rob

[Keith Black]

Thank you to all for the helpful comments and support and thank you to all for the likes.

 

I made some spacing cards to see which one looked the most correct while at the same time being achievable.

 

 This is .20 inch spacing for a total of 14 lines. In comparison to the surrounding elements this spacing is too large, to scale the spacing is 24 inches. 

 

This is .15 inch spacing for a totall of 18 lines. This looks like the spacing I normally see on models even though at scale the spacing is 18 inches. 

 

This is .10 spacing for a total of 27 lines. To scale this is 12 inches and is the most correct of the three. This is what one would one expect to see in real life. 

 

 

 While the third photo is the most correct I think it's also might possibly the hardest to produce a decent looking representation. Not because of the additional 9 lines over the number two photo but because of the room for spacing error. With that tight of spacing any spacing deviation is going to stick out like a sore thumb.  

 

 I've never tied ratlines. If I had done several models I wouldn't be as worried as I am. My shroud lines are sacred cows. I can not screw these up! If I had to redo on line I think I'd have to redone all of them, both sides. I like the idea of gluing the ratlines but what if I mess up in placing a line? Then what, how would I correct it? With knots, if it isn't right you undo and carry on.

 

 Having said the previous, I need some ratline practice before going 'all in' on my first attempt. I'm going to make a practice board of shroud lines and tie and glue ratlines till I feel comfortable. Only then will I move on to adding ratlines to the mizzen mast.

 

 Hopefully I'll be back sooner than later.  Again, thank you to everyone for following along and being part of my journey. 

[TBlack]

Keith,

I salute your caution and applaud your plan. I think you are going to find out that you can do it.

Tom

[mcb]

Hi Keith,

Wouldn't it be nice to have a 1:120 figure to visualize it, but I think the practice shrouds are a great idea, it should make your decision for you.

At least you won't have to rig the deadeyes on it.

 

Good Luck,

MCB

 

 

[wefalck]

These spacing cards are a good idea, I use them also, when rattling down. Also draw the shrouds, then you will immediately see, when you are pulling them out of shape. Don't fix them with glue until you have finished the whole set - this allows you to make final adjustments.

 

Another practical thing to consider is to position the model so that you can work in a comfortable position on it, this is particularly important for the topmast- and topgallant-ratlines. If you have to constantly keep your arms suspended above mid-chest level, this becomes very tiring and you will get sore muscles in the back.

 

[mbp521]

Keith, 

 

Spacing cards are the way to go!  I have never done a build without them and I have found that Bobby-pins work perfectly to hold them in place without getting in the way. Of course I’ve never done a build at that small of scale as you are doing, but I would think they would still work out fine. A test bed with a mock up is also the right way to go. 

 

As you said, the number three card is closest to scale and looks the best, while the number two card looks good as well. The attempt is to get the model as close to real as possible, but you also have to take into consideration your limitations. Either way you decide, you still have a fantastic build going on and we support whichever decision you make. You’ve got this!
 

-Brian

[My Fathers Son]

My attempts at ratlines definitely improved when I started using the guide cards, I mocked up a clamp gluing extensions to a small clamp then when it was in just the right place, clamped it on the opposite side to balance the weight.

 

I know you are working at a much smaller scale and looking to get a result closer to Robs than mine, but I am sure that this is the way to go.

 

You've got this.

 

Simon

 

 

[lraymo]

Wow, Keith! Just wow!  I'm so impressed and can't wait to see which way you go (love the cards to let you see what each would look like).  I agree with all the comments that whichever way you go, it will be the best!

[mtaylor]

Keith, you have a lot of good advice and you'll soon figure out what works for you.  And the practice board is a great idea.  As for glue, are you using PVA?   On the rigging I've done in the past, I used diluted PVA (with water) with the advantage over CA as being "removable" and not making the line brittle.  Some go as far as using a mix of PVA and water on all the rigging, not just knots.  It gives proper amount of bend/sage and also blocks dust from getting into the rigging.

[BrianK]

Keith, for practicing would a ratliner help? I think the smallest Model Shipways ratliner is 1/90 scale. The Zvezda (former Heller?) 1/100 Bark and Brig models have this plastic ratliner in the kits....

 

 BrianK

[Keith Black]

 Brian, thank you for the thought but it's too big. No way could I get it into position. I've got my test board set up and have done a few lines. Not happy with things thus far. I've got several ideas to try before I have to decide on a set course of action. Thank you again. 

[mtaylor]

Keith, I had one of those tools BrianK mentioned.   You use the tool off ship (if I remember right..been about 20 years or so) to do your rats with extra long shrouds and then transfer the threaded rats to the ship.

[BrianK]

Right Mark. 

Keith I was thinking of it possibly as a practice tool for off-boat ratline knot tieing. The teeth look to  be spaced about 0.1" so in the ballpark for 1/120 scale ratlines. 

 

BrianK

[FriedClams]

I'm sure this will turn out nice Keith, whichever spacing you decide on.  I totally agree with Mark's post below.  The ability to soften and remove what doesn't turn out as planned is huge.  Just my two cents. 

 

19 hours ago, mtaylor said:

As for glue, are you using PVA?   On the rigging I've done in the past, I used diluted PVA (with water) with the advantage over CA as being "removable" and not making the line brittle.  Some go as far as using a mix of PVA and water on all the rigging, not just knots.  It gives proper amount of bend/sage and also blocks dust from getting into the rigging.

 

Gary

[Keith Black]

4 minutes ago, FriedClams said:

The ability to soften and remove what doesn't turn out as planned is huge. 

 Absolutely, Gary, that's the driving force.

 

 I messed around a bit last night on the test board and I tried the gluing method. One, it's not positive enough in that a should and ratline don't necessarily what to be joined via the glue and if it does join and it's off, it's a mess. Gluing has been eliminated as an option.

 

 My dear wife just got back from a trip to Joann Fabric where she picked me up some beading needles sizes 10 and 12. I'm going to try to pass a beading needle through the shroud line with the ratline in tow. If this doesn't work, I have my doubts that it will due to the size of the shroud line, then it's clove hitches and devil take the hindquarter. 

 

 Thank you to everyone for your support, it warms the cockles of an old man's heart. 

[TBlack]

Keith,

I've done the weaving of the ratline, using a sewing needle, with some success. Not sure I understand the gluing issue, but with a bit of diluted PVA on the end of a straight pin at the right spot, then align the ratline; on to the next one.

TB

Edited February 27, 2022 by TBlack

[Keith Black]

 Tom, suffice to say, me and the gluing method didn't work out.

 

 Surprise surprise, the weaving (thank you Tom for providing the word I was looking for in my earlier post)  method shows great promise. I used a number 12 beading needle to pierce the simulated shroud line. The thread I'm using for the ratlines is 0.009 inches and the shroud line thread is 0 .015 inches. Both are Gutermann 100% polyester. 

 

 I'm going to order some number 15 beading needles, 0.010 inch diameter, as the 12 is a bit large at 0.0165 inch diameter. Other than a slight tug I didn't have any problem pulling the needle and ratline thread through the test shroud line thread. I used 0.015 inch spacing for the weaving method and now that I've had a chance to mess about a bit I think 0.15 inch is too large a space. While waiting for the size 15 needles to arrive I'm going to remove and add new shroud lines to the test board and continue practicing the weaving method using 0.10 inch spacing. 

 

 Thank you to everyone for the likes and support. 

 

 

[BrianK]

Keith, this sounds promising for onboard ratlining at small scales. Are you using a straight or curved beading needle? If its the straight one, do you go through the shrouds in one continuous piercing of the shrouds or do you stop and tie anywhere?

Thanks,

BrianK

[BANYAN]

Experimentation and persistence is the way to go until you find the method and result you prefer.  Nice progress so far.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[TBlack]

Keith,

Polyester line; try this as glue on that line. It dries clear, and is thin viscosity.

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, BrianK said:

Are you using a straight or curved beading needle? If its the straight one, do you go through the shrouds in one continuous piercing of the shrouds or do you stop and tie anywhere?

 Brian, it's a straight needle and no tying. Push through all the shroud lines leaving at least half an inch overage on the edge shroud lines. Obviously you have to secure the ends, I did so with a toothpick end dipped in CA and touched to the edge shroud lines and the ratline. One edge shroud line needs to be glued and when dry the ratlines on the other edge need to be pulled tight to take out the slack and then glued in place. When both edges are dry snip the ratline tails.

 

This method is pretty fast. Very little glue is required and only applied when ready to do so. If a ratline looks off, pull it out do over. This method is pretty forgiving. When I do my next testing I may try tying a overhand knot and see how that looks. 

 

 

https://www.joann.com/beading-hand-needles-size-15-4-pkg/8235681.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpdCMgKWh9gIVwQxlCh0ARQEoEAQYASABEgL2zvD_BwE

[Keith Black]

12 minutes ago, TBlack said:

Polyester line; try this as glue on that line. It dries clear, and is thin viscosity.

 Tom, is this paint or glue? Do you have a link? I looked up Liquitex and didn't see a bottle exactly like the one you posted. 

[Keith Black]

  While we're on the topic of products, I came across this surgical tubing today, 0.025" OD x 0.012 " ID. That's some super small tubing. It's clear silicone, no colors and it's expensive, 10 feet for $48.00 plus shipping. But I keep thinking there's gotta be some cool uses for this. Glen, can you use this somehow in your SIBs? I'm seriously thinking using it for Zip Seizing.  

 

https://amblersurgical.com/9010e-replacement-silicone-tubing-10-0-012-id-x-0-025-od-x-0-007-wall?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIp6mm8pug9gIVKvHjBx0w-ArFEAQYASABEgJpMvD_BwE

 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Keith Black

[Glen McGuire]

1 hour ago, Keith Black said:

Glen, can you use this somehow in your SIBs? I'm seriously thinking using it for Zip Seizing.  

 

That is interesting, Keith.  I had no idea they made it so thin.  I will definitely keep that in mind when I kick off the next project.  Thanks for the heads-up.  

[Keith Black]

 Glen, I only need about two feet to accomplish what I need to do plus another foot or two for spares. If I bought ten feet I could send you whatever you needed up to six feet or only one foot if you wanted to play around with the stuff. This looks so small I bet I could I stick a foot or two in an envelope and mail it to you. Think about it and If I decide to make the plunge I'll let you know and if your interested you can PM me your address.

 

 If someone else has an interest speak up.