Gutermann Polyester thread for making rope.

[Chuck]

I buy from wawak.  The formulas I use are in this topic.  Everyone has given you some great advice.  Just stick with it. That sample you made looks great.

 

Serafil Is also quite good if you cant find Mara.

[Gregory]

Here is a link to Chuck's recipes..

 

 

 

Like Chuck says, your end result can be slightly different depending on how your machine does things, but it should be close..

 

 

[Gahm]

I finally moved into rope making, too, using Chuck's recipe and rope Rocket. After a little experimentation the results turned out very satisfactory. Between our dining table and a little Black& Decker work bench I can easily make ropes of about 25' (see picture). 

 

Although it was much easier to just buy the finished high quality ropes form Chuck 😊

 

Thomas

[Chuck]

I would so much rather you experience the JOY of rope making yourself.   You will never buy another package of rope again.  That is very nice stuff!!!

[DelF]

I've been using my Syren Rope Rocket for several years now, and have enjoyed making my own rope from Cordonnet thread. Having read Chuck's description of Gutermann Mara I decided to give it a go. Here's my first attempt, using three strands of Mara 70 to produce 0.5mm rope. Using the oven for anything other than cooking is a capital offence in my house, so I used a hot air gun (the sort crafters use, not paint strippers!) to prevent unravelling and it seems to have worked. 

I've now tried different sizes of standing and running rigging and I'm pleased with the results - and very pleased I can leave behind the messy business of dyeing. I've now ordered a supply of #696 for standing and #854 for running rigging.

 

Thanks Chuck, for starting such a helpful thread.

 

Derek

[niwotwill]

I've made the change to Mara awhile ago with fantastic results. Quick question: the rope in the picture is that the #854? 

 

Best Regards

Will

[DelF]

Yes Will, it’s #854. 

[Jorge_Goncalves]

Hi,
I just bought the Syren Rope Rocket and now I need the threads. Any recommendations where I can buy Gutermann Mara in Europe (EU)? I've been looking at Williamgee.co.uk, but the postage is prohibitive... 

 

[wefalck]

Gütermann (https://www.guetermann.com) is a German manufacturer, so you could write to them and ask them through which channels they sell their products in Portugal. Otherwise, you might find an ebay trader in Portugal or somewhere else in the EU, where postage is not so prohibitive.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

    Guterman thread is found (SE Pennsylvania, USA) in sewing or many quilt shops, and it has good strength in the sewing I've done.  But I like Metrosene (made by Mettler - also a German company) even better.  I'll try it for rope making - noting that the full-size demo rope I make at Colonial craft fairs on my hand-cranked gears rope walk has three strands of common jute cord on each of the three spinners that will make the three strands of the rope.  When I get round to using the Rope Rocket (thankfully drill powered), the layup will be the same, as I haven't dabbled with any four strand rope (those using antique rope spinners with four hooks have that as an option).

 

  Different thickness of rope require different thicknesses of cord, and in the case of model ship rope that means different thread weight.  The finest I can find is #80 in cotton, and it easy to break - but would make the thinnest rope, and would be reasonably strong once made from all the strands together.  #60 and #40 will be progressively thicker.  There are other weights going down to buttonhole twill.

[blackjack40]

Finally got my rope rocket up and running and I'm excited to share my rope! First off, thanks Chuck! the machine is super easy to use and your rope recipe your posted and the videos worked really well. For these I used the Gütermann Mara 30(Color 2899), 100 and 120 in color 854 as I couldn't find 2899 in the smaller threads. I'm hooked! When compared to the kit rope or the sewing thread I have been using this is vastly superior. 

 

 

I also experimented with some black Gütermann both cotton and Polyester. The Cotton produced a very fuzy rope so I don't think I'll use that one again going forward.   

Mara 100, color 854, for a .012 diameter rope.

 

Mara 30 on the left(color 2899, 1 TSP, 3S, not sure what size that makes, something slightly smaller than .018), Mara 100 (color 854, 1TPS, 3s) in the middle, and Mara 120 on the right (color 854, 1TPS, 3s). 

For the more experienced rope makers, when I read the recipe for the mara 30 based ropes, it mentions multiple TPS, I'm assuming that's multiple lengths of mara 30 and you're not un twisting it to get the smaller strands mara 30 is made of. 

 

thanks for taking a look. 

 

-Joe 

 

 

[bc_63]

Hi Chuck,

 

Please add my sincere note of thanks and appreciation to this thread.  I'm a newbie model builder and rope-making hack, and trying to understand this process a bit better.

 

I've made this rope using 1x3 Mara 120.  I measure it to be about 0.016", basically double the diameter of yours.  (That's a 1/32" scale on the ruler.)  Any tips on what I may be doing wrong?

 

Also in this picture is the thread that Occre supplies as 0.15mm, or 0.006".  To my eye, they are about the same size, so clearly my confusion abounds.

 

Thank you!!

 

 

[VTHokiEE]

2 hours ago, bc_63 said:

Any tips on what I may be doing wrong?

I'm no expert (so take this with a grain of salt), but when my rope was too thick it was because I wasn't doing enough twists, typically at the initial stage before combining the lines. You might want to try increasing the number of initial twists a bit.

[Chuck]

26 minutes ago, VTHokiEE said:

I'm no expert (so take this with a grain of salt), but when my rope was too thick it was because I wasn't doing enough twists,

Thats it in a nutshell.   You need to give it a tighter lay.  Much more twists....but you are just guessing on the diameter.  That is not how you should measure.  Measure with a calipers....and much much tighter....

 

It looks great though

 

 

[Gregory]

Another tip for better measuring.  Wrap 10 turns around a dowel then measure and divide by ten.

[Chuck]

Thats not a very accurate method either.  It flattens and widens each strand.

 

The single best way in my opinion is to use a calipers.  That is is you dont have access to a digital laboratory microscope which I do.   

 

Set the calipers first...if you are trying to make .018 rope, then set you caliper first and lock it.  Most digital calipers have a screw to lock it so it reads .018.   Then use a magnifier so you can get up close and see what going on.   Hold the rope you made loosely so you are not stretching it.  Try and place it in the calipers.   Its that simple.   If you use an optivisor and get close you can see very clearly if it slips between the space and just touches the sides.  Without compressing.   If it does so....you have .018 rope.  If you see room on either side of the rope then its too small.   If it doesnt slide between the calipers without any resistance and you can see the rope thickness compress....then its too big.   

 

 

[LeoM]

On 1/16/2023 at 10:59 PM, blackjack40 said:

Finally got my rope rocket up and running and I'm excited to share my rope! First off, thanks Chuck! the machine is super easy to use and your rope recipe your posted and the videos worked really well. For these I used the Gütermann Mara 30(Color 2899), 100 and 120 in color 854 as I couldn't find 2899 in the smaller threads. I'm hooked! When compared to the kit rope or the sewing thread I have been using this is vastly superior. 

 

 

I also experimented with some black Gütermann both cotton and Polyester. The Cotton produced a very fuzy rope so I don't think I'll use that one again going forward.   

Mara 100, color 854, for a .012 diameter rope.

 

Mara 30 on the left(color 2899, 1 TSP, 3S, not sure what size that makes, something slightly smaller than .018), Mara 100 (color 854, 1TPS, 3s) in the middle, and Mara 120 on the right (color 854, 1TPS, 3s). 

For the more experienced rope makers, when I read the recipe for the mara 30 based ropes, it mentions multiple TPS, I'm assuming that's multiple lengths of mara 30 and you're not un twisting it to get the smaller strands mara 30 is made of. 

 

thanks for taking a look. 

 

-Joe 

 

 

Hello Joe,

What happened to your pictures?

Thanks for posting again.

[wefalck]

In the fabric trade there are also so-called thread-counting loupes that are grated for measuring or measuring-loupes with grate in fractions of millimetres. I don't have one, but know that some colleagues use them successfully.

[bc_63]

Thank you very much, Chuck.  I have tried making the rope (3x Mara 120) as tight as I can but am unable to make it less than 0.015.  Here's a shot of it fitting into calipers locked at that dimension:

 

If I try to put more twists in the thread (before allowing it to start being rope), it starts bunching up on itself, which then ends up as little bumps in the rope.  Obviously not acceptable.

 

At this point, I'll just use this rope for my model and I think it'll be fine.  Net-net is that I'm really enjoying making my own rope and would not have even attempted this without your help!!

 

Cheers,

Bryan

 

 

 

 

[Chuck]

It does look beautiful...If you need something thinner try and experiment with other threads.   I dont know what to tell you about the size issue but it sure is fine looking rope that you are making.   

 

 

[Chuck]

Only have brown mara 120 at the moment.  But I could have laid this up tighter.  sorry its upside down but that the only way the calipers would stay upright.  I think the thread you are using is not actually the correct dia…for mara 120.  Because I didnt even lay this up that tightly.  The calipers are barely open at all.  
 

but either way….you are making beautiful rope.  Glad you are enjoying the process.
 

 

[bc_63]

Thank you, Chuck, for taking the time to not only respond, but to go make a sample.  Wow!  Beyond gracious.  And I truly appreciate your kind comments on the look of the rope I'm making.

 

I'm not sure what's going on with the size, but it does make sense that perhaps my thread isn't quite right.  Here's a picture of the 4 spools I have, and I'm pretty confident that I was using the 120.

 

 

Final question:  Does the lay (left or right) make any difference on size?

 

Cheers,

Bryan

 

[Chuck]

Nope.. not at all

[Michael P]

A fascinating discussion. Goodness, Chuck, that’s impressive rope.

I used to make model ships in the 1950’s, and found that cotton was hopeless, as if the atmosphere was at all damp, as it often was in Oxford, it stretched (much like old fashioned gut strings on tennis rackets, or those on the French crossbows at Crécy). What I used instead was terylene (a form of polyester, I think) thread, made by Sylko. There seems to be no problem about it lasting - it’s as good as it was over sixty years ago. I took to making models again in the last few years, and have been using Gutermann extra fine polyester thread. This seems good, but time will tell. I’ve not had real problems with unravelling; I use balsa cement to stiffen the ends of ropes, which makes it possible to thread deadeyes and blocks. It’s harder to make coils with it than the Sylko thread was. I’d not come across Gutermann Mara, which I think may be thicker than I need for small models. As for how to make ropes, fortunately, despite some family opposition, I kept over all these years a little machine I made from Meccano, so have not needed to buy a modern ropewalk, which in any case is currently unavailable from Cornwall Boats.

Now, the colour of rigging. This appears to be somewhat controversial, with the fashion being for very pale, or even white, running rigging. The argument is presumably that this was not tarred. There’s an intriguing contrast, to judge by the photos on the web, between the black tarred rope used on HMS Trincomalee, and the pale ropes that feature on HMS Victory. Both are owned by the National Museum of the Royal Navy. Contemporary paintings are not much use, as any colour of rigging will appear dark against sky or sails. Models in the National Maritime Museum are difficult, as it’s often not clear from the photos on the web whether the rigging is original. I note that the model of HMS Ipswich (1730), which does have original rigging, looks to have it uniformly dark.Now, I read in Steel, writing in the 1790s, that ‘Yarn for cables requires more tar than for hawser-laid ropes. For running and standing rigging, the less tar the better, provided the thread is well covered.' This suggests that untarred rope was not used, and I’d have thought the right answer is to use very dark brown or even black for standing rigging, and a mid-brown for running rigging. Or perhaps just go with what seems best.

[Bob Cleek]

6 hours ago, Michael P said:

Now, I read in Steel, writing in the 1790s, that ‘Yarn for cables requires more tar than for hawser-laid ropes. For running and standing rigging, the less tar the better, provided the thread is well covered.' This suggests that untarred rope was not used, and I’d have thought the right answer is to use very dark brown or even black for standing rigging, and a mid-brown for running rigging. Or perhaps just go with what seems best.

 

Steel is correct and, although you appear to have misunderstood Steel, your color instincts are relatively accurate, it appears you are confusing Steel's "tarred yarn" with your own concept of "tarred rope." Natural fiber yarns used to traditionally make ordinary cordage for use in the marine environment were and are always "tarred" by being placed in a bath of thinned pine tar to impart a relatively thin coating of tar to the individual strands before they are laid up into rope. The thin tar coating on the yarns serves the important purpose of improving the water-resistance of the yarns, the greatest part of which are "inside the lay" and not as much exposed to the drying air. This light tar coating on the yarns increases the rope's resistance to decay in the wet marine environment, and to a lesser degree, the tar's "tackiness" helps to bind the laid-up rope together better. The greater the amount of tar applied, the more water-resistant the cordage will be, so, as Steel notes, "Yarn for cables requires more tar than for hawser-laid ropes." because cables spend a lot of their time underwater or stowed wet in the cable lockers, so the greater amount of tar provides a greater amount of water-resistance and hence resistance to strength-weakening decay. 

 

Most top-quality fiber for traditional marine rope making, such as sisal, flax, or hemp, is naturally quite white, or almost nearly so, whether naturally or from being bleached. The addition of the thin pine tar coating to the near-white yarns produces the characteristic "honey/straw" color of brand-new fiber rope (as well as its agreeable pine tar aroma.)  In use, however, hawser-laid cordage (i.e., three-strand running rigging) will weather in the marine environment to the color of a light grey-tan. In other words, as you correctly expected, running rigging is "rope colored."

 

On the other hand, all served standing rigging, served footropes, and any other rope requiring chafe protection, (as well as deadeye lanyards after the standing rigging had been stretched well and the lanyards more or less permanently set up,) was kept coated with routine applications of "slush," a paint made of pine tar, linseed oil, and lampblack, or the equivalent, depending on whatever was available, such as pine tar, varnish or paint, and lampblack.  ("Slush" is sailor slang for any thick liquid residue. The word was also used to identify the thick sludge of fat and salt that remained at "the bottom of the barrel" of salted meat aboard ship. This residue was saved and sold to renderers upon making port with the proceeds then used to buy something for the crew's benefit... hence the term "slush fund.") As "slush" was often made up of leftover paint and varnish in the bosun's locker, lampblack was used to uniformly turn the concoction into a black paint.  "Slushing" was the last step in the standard water-proofing technique known collectively as the "service" of a rope which kept the rope dry and protected it from being weakened by chafing.  The technique was to first worm lengths of "small stuff," (appropriately sized laid cord) by tightly wrapping them laid in the larger rope's "contlines," (the proper nautical term here Bowdlerized for the benefit of delicate ears), then heavily applying thick pine tar to the wormed rope and parceling it by wrapping strips of canvas, bandage-fashion, spirally around the wormed and tarred rope, then, serving the wormed, parceled, and tarred rope by very tightly spirally wrapping a covering of tarred marline or other appropriately sized small laid line around the wormed, tarred, and parceled rope. (When steel cable came into use as standing rigging, the method of its service was exactly the same as with rope, although the thick tar applied before parceling was often replaced with a thick coating of white lead paste as a rust-preventing bedding compound.)

 

So, the color of running rigging depends upon how the modeler wishes to portray the vessel. Is it to be portrayed as "brand spanking new" or as she looked once the "new car smell had worn off?" If the latter, taking appropriate color compensation for "scale viewing distance into consideration," running rigging would be a somewhat "grey/tan" for running rigging, or what might be called a "used rope color." As dirt tended to collect in the contlines of rope and the more prominently exposed outermost surface of the rope tends to bleach some in the sun, used rope on a sailing vessel will end up showing a darker color in its "contlines" than on the raised outer face of its strands. A particularly detail-oriented modeler may want to experiment with various stain-washing techniques to see if they can duplicate the contrasting light and dark areas of a warn piece of rope exposed to the marine environment.

 

Any rigging that is served (or was in the prototype but was omitted in the model) should be colored flat black, not because of the amount of tar on it, but because the "slush" used to coat it was jet black. 

 

Now, the standing rigging of small craft was generally not served, in which case it would presumably appear the same as running rigging, so in any given instance with small craft, some research may be necessary to identify whether the standing rigging of a specific small craft was or wasn't served.

 

A picture is worth a thousand words department: 

 

Having worked over the years on a few movies as a technical advisor and "boat wrangler" (responsible for the boats used), I always have a practiced eye open for the "production values" of any movie within my areas of expertise. More often than not, the job of a technical advisor is to tug on the set decorator or director's sleeve and say, "Excuse me, but that detail is incorrect" and not argue with the response, "Nobody'll notice it and we're on a budget, you know." Period naval movies are my favorite hunting grounds for catching directors "driving on an artistic license." It's a rare "swashbuckler" that doesn't have a few glaring rigging anachronisms with which to find fault, among the more frequent being synthetic cordage on period ships. (Note the Dacron line in the Hornblower TV mini-series example below.) I'd heard the scuttlebutt before its premiere that an incredible amount of effort was being put into ensuring authenticity in the Russell Crowe movie Master and Commander - The Far Side of the World and when I saw it, I was very impressed with their success in that effort. If you want to know what running rigging really looked like during the Age of Sail, they got it exactly right. (See: Master and Commander photo below.) I'm still not too sure what's supposed to be happening with that block and it's stropping in the foreground. I think it's supposed to be part of some shot-away top hamper that's fallen to the deck. 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Michael P]

Very interesting, and many thanks. Can I say first that, as other have said, that a problem with Gutermann thread is that it’s very hard to get hold of all the colours that are on their charts.

Now, Steel. The quote I gave is a bit puzzling, as it contrasts ‘cables’ with ‘hawser-laid ropes’. ‘Cables’ here probably does indeed mean anchor cables, but could be interpreted as ‘cable-laid’, which is not quite the same thing. There are a couple of other relevant quotes about tarring from Steel: ‘All cables and cordage to be tarred with good Stockholm tar, without mixture of any other, except about one-third part, which may be of Russia tar.’ And ‘bolt-rope is slack-laid, made white, and stoved and tarred by the sail-maker when used.’ He also explains that  ‘Ropes, from 2 inches to the largest size, for running rigging, are hawser-laid’. Cable-laid rope, particularly if well-tarred, would have made no sense for running rigging, as it would have been too stiff to run through blocks. I was unaware till now of the full complexities of ‘cable laid’ and ‘hawser laid’. I see that there was some controversy about the 27 miles of rope supplied for the Master and Commander film, with suggestions that the right-handed lay was anachronistic, which it was not (Harland in Mariner’s Mirror, 2014, issue 1). A note by Harland (Mariner’s Mirror 2005, issue 3) explains the differences between British and American usage, cable-laid and hawser-laid apparently being synonymous in America, but not in Britain, where, somewhat confusingly, hawsers were cable-laid. Incidentally, I’ve used the online version of Steel at https://www.maritime.org/doc/steel/index.php, which is unexpurgated (but don’t expect to find it titillating). This is easier to read than the  scan of the original edition at archive.org.