Aliphatic Rapid Glue vs. CA and Tite Bond

[glbarlow]

I've read a number of builders, particularly our English friends, using Aliphatic Glue. I thought I'd give it a try and just received some from my favorite English Model Shop, Cornwall Model Boats.

 

Any experience or observations on using Aliphatic glue vs. CA and Tite Bond beyond the obvious point about set up times?  I've always and will continue to use CA for planking, I'm comfortable with that just as I use Tite Bond for gluing bulkheads and frames. I'm wondering where, or if, Aliphatic Rapid Glue can improve my modeling perhaps for deck furniture or even deck planking? Does it hold up, is there some subtle advantage to it vs. others?

 

I tried another cheaper version of this type of glue for cleats on bulwarks only to find it didn't hold up to the tension of a rigging line.  

 

Just looking for thoughts, observations, and experience of my fellow MSWers...

[vaddoc]

Cheap vs expensive CA glue, I found there is a world of difference. Really I only use CA for metal to metal or metal to wood.

White PVA, dries clear, longer opening time. Aliphatic, dries yellow, very short opening time. I use both depending on properties I need.

Joints glued with PVA should be stronger than the wood itself. If you had failures, maybe the surfaces were contaminated or you did not apply enough pressure-PVA shrinks as it dries. Maybe lightly sand the surfaces and make sure they mate fully with enough pressure.

All PVAs are pretty much the same, except for some being waterproof.

[KingDavid]

So would you recommend  to stick to PVA or Aliphatic Resin when second planking is concerned

or would you use CA instead? i am currently thorn between the two options... I know many recommend the PVA since it's better with wood to wood surfaces, and it is also reversible ..but the CA gives a very strong and clean result

It's downsides to me is that it terrible when it touch's your skin and also some stress when applying since when it cures/hardens there is no way back so every plank etc needs to be 100% in its position...hard to decide...   

[glbarlow]

1 hour ago, vaddoc said:

If you had failures,

The failure was with a cheaper version of aliphatic glue, not CA or PVA.  I've used the same top brand of CA for my models for years, I've never ever had a failure. Some of my models are 20 years old at this point. I'm very comfortable with CA. 

 

15 minutes ago, KingDavid said:

So would you recommend  to stick to PVA or Aliphatic Resin when second planking is concerned

I use only CA for planking, no reason or desire to change there. I know there are many that use PVA for hull planking, I'm not one of them. I was thinking about the aliphatic more for the deck and deck furniture since it dries clear and doesn't seem to stain.

 

There is a difference between white PVA and Tite Bond, and even Tite Bond has three different formulas one of which I think is phatic I believe.  I'm looking for those that experience with AliPhatic and its best use (if there is one)

[DelF]

Hi Glenn

 

I'd draw a distinction between aliphatic resin (also known as carpenter's glue and yellow glue) and the rapid aliphatic glues like Super 'Phatic. I use the former just like PVA -  it is supposed to be stronger and sandable, but as far as I'm concerned it's virtually the same deal. I described the brand I use here in my Speedy log, but many manufacturers make their own versions, including well-known brands like Titebond.

 

However this 'ordinary' aliphatic resin is very different to the rapid glue that your namesake from Scarborough, UK put me on to. Super 'Phatic (which I got here) really is different to PVA. It looks different, being much thinner and more penetrating, and grabs almost as fast as CA, especially if you hold it under pressure for a few moments. As you know from my Speedy log, I found it very useful for laying deck planks where after a few seconds it was stuck enough to lay flat against the sheer and solid enough to trim. 

 

I've only used that one brand, so I don't know how it compares with the one you ordered from Cornwall. If yours is as good, then I'm sure you'll find it provides a useful tool for those situations where CA is too fast and PVA too slow. I'll be interested to hear how you get on.

 

Derek

Edited June 20, 2021 by DelF

[vaddoc]

Superphatic is actuallg marketed as CA glue alternative

I ve used the Cornwall model aliphatic glue extensively, it is very nice but just an alipharic PVA, nothing more. I now use Titebond that seems to have a bit faster opening time.

[bartley]

On 6/14/2020 at 6:43 AM, DelF said:

 

 Super 'Phatic (which I got here) really is different to PVA. It looks different, being much thinner and more penetrating, and grabs almost as fast as CA, especially if you hold it under pressure for a few moments..

 

For what its worth I have done a quick chemical analysis of Super Phatic.  For those in the know I used Attenuated Total Reflectance Infrared Spectroscopy (like most exclusive clubs, we scientists invent this special language to keep out the rifraf!). This technique is quick (ten minutes). It cannot usually unequivocally identify a substance but can eliminate some possibilities.

 

So, It is not CA and it is not PVA.  It looks like an acrylic modified with polystyrene.  There are other techniques which could confirm this but not really worth spending my time on really.

 

John

[Gregory]

A plastic that is soluble in water?

 

This could be more far reaching than it seems at first glance..

 

 

[Avi]

On 6/13/2020 at 8:30 PM, glbarlow said:

The failure was with a cheaper version of aliphatic glue, not CA or PVA.  I've used the same top brand of CA for my models for years, I've never ever had a failure. Some of my models are 20 years old at this point. I'm very comfortable with CA. 

What brand do you use @glbarlow?

 

I’m about to get some (hull planking is coming up soon), would really be interested in what you recommend. 
 

I’ve also found getting consistencies on the major brands (Crazy, Gorilla, etc) a bit of a headache, as they don’t (seem to) list the consistencies, just interesting marketing names, like “gel” or “original”. That doesn’t help if I just want some medium, some thick for filling, etc

 

thanks!

Edited August 27, 2021 by Avi

[glbarlow]

6 hours ago, Avi said:

What brand do you use

Bob Smith Industries, I get mine from Amazon. They have three versions: thin, medium, and thick. I never use the thin and use the medium for 90% of what I do with CA.

[Gregory]

I discovered BS when I ordered some ModelExpo branded CA to fill out an order to get free shipping.

 

Discovered it was re-branded BS..    I use the medium and it is the best I have found.

[Avi]

They appear to have so many variants on Amazon - super thin, thin, gap filling, instacure, etc. 

 

do you mind sharing a link to the medium you get?

[glbarlow]

There are only the three, plus an accelerator and an “un-cure” which comes in handy on occasion. 
 

https://www.amazon.com/Insta-Cure-Filling-Bob-Smith-Ind/dp/B0000DD1QQ/ref=sr_1_2?crid=195Q0ZL64R7G5&dchild=1&keywords=bob+smith+industries+insta-cure&qid=1630071114&sprefix=Smith+indu%2Caps%2C180&sr=8-2

 

[Avi]

How did you know that the purple “instacure+” is the medium? I guess the blue is the thin and the red thick?

[glbarlow]

That’s what the blue and red say on the bottle. You can learn all about BSI here:

 

https://bsi-inc.com/

 

[DelF]

1 hour ago, glbarlow said:

You can learn all about BSI here:

Thanks for the tip Glenn.  I've just found I can order BSI glue in the UK, including the odourless version that I hope I'll be able to use without the adverse reaction I've developed to regular CA.

 

[Avi]

@DelF is the regular version problematic with odour?

 

I just found two online stores here in Israel that carry it as well, so I should be good. 

[DelF]

I’ve not tried the regular BSI glue. However about a year ago I developed an adverse reaction to the fumes given off by other brands of regular CA. I think it was because I used a lot of it over a prolonged period. I hope the odourless BSI glue will help. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by DelF

[Canute]

You may need a mask capable of handling organic solvents. I use it with acetone based plastic glues, such as Tamiya Extra Thin and MEK.  I don't seem to have issues with the plastic cement sold thru Deluxe or the Testors liquid on the black dispenser.

[Avi]

As an interesting side note, I cut my finger on the tip last, no stitches, stopped bleeding reasonably quickly. But afterwards there was a small flap that, when knocked/pushed, hurt as it flipped back. I didn't want a bandage - gets in the way of life and work - so I put on a dab of thin CA, waited for it to set, went about my day. Repeated every day for 2-3 days, no problems.

 

It isn't just for the model ships! 🙂

 

I probably will order the Bob Smith. Thoughts on Starbond?

[BobG]

11 hours ago, Avi said:

so I put on a dab of thin CA, waited for it to set, went about my day.

CA works well on small cuts and flappers. I had a small slit on the end of my finger that I kept breaking open and it was staying quite sore. My niece, who is an ER nurse, put some CA on it and, after a week or so, it was healed up. I ask her what happens to the CA and she said that it just gets pushed out as the cut heals. I've used it several times for these little, bothersome cuts and flappers and it does the job.

[mtaylor]

That was the original use for CA according to legend.   The military was first to use it.

[Canute]

I got a deep laceration on my arm some time back. The usual home remedies failed to staunch the blood flow, so off to the Emergency Room I went. The good doctor gave me a tetanus shot and dabbed CA in the cut. Now I have a small scar where the cut healed up. Like Mark said, this was developed during the Viet Nam War for rapid "suturing".

[Avi]

It is CA; you could sand it down and paint it @Canute 🙂

[DelF]

I ordered some of the odourless CA from Bob Smith Industries as recommended by @glbarlow and it arrived today. I tried the medium version (described as 'gap filling') and so far I haven't experienced the adverse effects such as streaming nose and sneezing (which persist for days after use) I've developed with other brands of regular CA. I'll try using this brand for a more prolonged period to see if I remain symptom free, but just now I feel cautiously optimistic.

[glbarlow]

Hope it continues to work for you. 

[DaveBaxt]

I am no expert but tried using PVA glue for wales  and Channels on my last buid but found it quite difficult as it took  too long to dry. I then tried CA glue and held the pieces in place and then used an accellerate. This worked quite well but not too sure how strong this is. I have since received some  Rocket Super phatic glue (the stuff Delf is talking about)  and was thinking of giving this ago as I understand a little goes a long way, dries quicker than PVA and  it penetrates the wood so  hopefully stronger than CA. If this goes as well as I hope perhaps I will use it extensively on my next build which will be one of the kits from Vanguard.

[DaveBaxt]

Any thoughts on super phatic on rigging knots. I have used Ca CA in the past but appreciate this is not ideal and would rather use PVA but again waiting time for setting is problematic. 

[glbarlow]

Clear acrylic or watered down PVA are best for rigging, it just takes what it takes to dry. Tie a knot and try the phatic. I’d guess it dries hard and maybe discolors the rope.