Workshop machinery

[Slowhand]

Advice needed, looking ahead in my Polacca build which is relatively large scale (1/32)  for doing the fine work after finishing the structural stuff, not there yet mind more planking to do.  

 

What would be really useful, table saw, scroll saw or mini milling machine. Never used any of these and very little knowledge of milling machines
 

Budget no real problem, but space is, can only get one of the above in my shed and it’s unlikely to do everything obviously. Parts to be made: 
Gun carriages

capstan,

stern window frames

deck gratings

scarf joints for keel, deck planking

deck gratings
small parts- stern lanterns

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Slowhand
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[mtaylor]

That's hard to answer...  maybe two small desktop/workbench tools like small table saw and a small scroll saw.   I seldom use my lathe, but my mill gets used a bit more.  Mostly it's two saws.   Neither needs to be full size so Proxxon, Micromark, etc. might work for you.  They don't need to be permanently mounted so you mount with screws or other hardware to make them removable in order to keep one stowed and the other on a bench.

[kurtvd19]

Do a search on each of these topics - they have been discussed many times - lots of advice & recommendations.

[Roger Pellett]

To make the items listed above, either a model maker’s table saw or a milling machine can be rigged up to produce them.  Looking forward to more projects, I would choose the table saw.  The Byrnes saw (Byrnes Model Machines) is considered to be the gold standard.

[Keithbrad80]

Out of the three tools you listed I would say a table saw would provide the most use. The Byrnes Table Saw would be an excellent purchase IMO, it would provide the most use long term. I have a table saw and a scroll saw but not a mill, it would be really nice to have but I don’t have one yet. The table saw might not provide a ton of immediate use but that gets my vote. 
 

Bradley

[Slowhand]

Thanks for the replies, I’ve had a good look at discussions on the various merits of scroll swaps and table saws on this forum but there’s a lot less about mini milling machines which are something I know little about. If you take milling/planking your own timber out of the equation would a Byrnes table saw or a mini mill be of more use for the tasks I listed. One’s thing for sure won’t be buying without seeing one or close equivalent in the flesh.

[No Idea]

Hi Slowhand - for the parts that you have listed to make;  both the mill and table saw would be a good investment.   However you could make all of those parts on a mill but that comes with experience.  So to answer your question - If budget is not an issue I would buy a Byrnes table saw and a Proxxon micro mill as this would make the process more precise and quicker.  They are both quite small but also both extremely capable, so after a purchase you just need to practice your art.  There are many YouTube videos to watch but if you have no experience of machinery you're local collage generally does classes.

 

Seriously you only have one set of fingers and both of these machines would remove them in a heart beat.  I have both machines and treat them with the utmost respect and I was tool room trained as an apprentice.

 

So great machines but do your homework and get some help if you have never used machines like this.  Also there is no comparison between a scroll saw and a table saw.  There is far more comparison between a scroll saw and a band saw but again not entirely. 

 

Scroll saws and Band saws are for shaping wood into shapes.  Well as far as simple modelling work goes anyway taking out of the equation roughing out large pieces of timber.

 

Table saws are for precise straight cuts and rebates etc

 

Mills make precise cuts in already precisely cut wood unless you have a big mill which most people do not.

 

Confusing I know but there is not one tool that is better than another.  They all do very different tasks in my opinion for what its worth

[Jaager]

The following is what I have learned over the several years that I have been involved with model ship building.  It is just easier to write using the emphatic verb tense  Reqardless  of how it reads, I know "it ain't necessarily so."

 

Looking at what functions a mill performs, I see very few that are of a direct use for fabricating the components of a wooden ship hull.

It could cut a rabbet - but that is not one long notch that is the same for its entire length. 

It can cut mortises for the lands of carlings, knees, and ledges.  A sharp chisel will also do this for a lot less money.

A mill can also double as a drill press.  But a drill press can be had for much less.  I have had more than enough duty from a EuroTools DRL 300 clone to pay for itself.

Although the quill bearings are not designed for lateral stress,  I am thinking that it will serve to cut a notch in wood, if a sharp cutter is used and the cuts are light.

To my way of thinking, a mill is primarily used for working metal.  If you are not intending to fabricate your own metal tools, then a mill and a lathe will prove to be a frivolous expenditure. 

If you get to a point where you really need either, you will know that you do.  You will know the specs that either should have.  As a corollary to the Yacht Rule: if you have to ask, you do not need either a mill  or a lathe.

(If you are building a liner - a ship with a lot of guns, I can see using a mill to shape a block to the shape of the truck sides and using the saw to slice each one off.  The necessity of grain being in the correct orientation will limit the width of the block.  The kerf from each slice will be about the thickness of the truck side, so the waste is significant.  Unless you are building a fleet of liners,  this is not worth what a mill will cost.)

 

For what you list: 

A source of wood stock that is precisely the necessary thickness is needed.

My answer is a 14" bandsaw and a Byrnes Thickness Sander.  I buy 8x4 rough lumber and have it cross cut to 2 foot lengths.  That is 120 feet at my scale.  This is cost effective if you are POF and building at a scale of 1:72 or larger.

A Byrnes table saw and thickness sander will do if your bulk stock is 3/4" thick or less.  You will want planed stock  (4/4 (1") rough is 3/4" after it is planed).

For planks, Saw with the big fence - for the smaller stuff, the sliding cross cut table.

I also like the Byrnes disk sander.  It does the butt joints of my frame timbers quite well and is very powerful.  It has no speed control. so it is not meant for plastic.

 

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

Once you learn to use it, the table saw can be very versatile. Different thickness blades can be used to make different width grooves, and the saw’s blade height adjustment allows different depths.  If you buy one of Jim’s saws he also sells adaptors so that you can use blades with different diameter arbor holes.  Figure our where you are going to buy your blades, see what diameter arbor holes they offer and then order the necessary adaptors with your saw.  

 

Roger

[Bob Cleek]

After reading your post and the tasks you anticipate doing, I would say that a table saw is the tool you will use the most in those applications. This is especially true if you anticipate fabricating deck gratings, window frames, and such. However, it must be a highly accurate and sufficiently powerful mini-table saw. (It's got to be able to zip through rock-hard wood, not just balsa and basswood!) Accuracy is really critical. You'll also want a saw with a good precision cross-sawing sled.

 

"If you take milling/planking your own timber out of the equation would a Byrnes table saw or a mini mill be of more use for the tasks I listed."  The table saw is still the more useful by a long shot, in my opinion. Of greater concern, however, is the fact that you are not likely able to "take milling/planking your own timber out of the equation." At an ever-increasing rate, pre-milled dimensioned modeling wood is becoming unavailable. There just isn't enough demand for it that anybody can make a living making and selling it. There's some poor and medium grade modeling woods still commercially available in dimensioned sizes, but practically none in quality species anymore, but you'll quickly run into problems finding the size you need.  Moreover, when you mill your own on your own table saw, you have a far wider selection of woods to chose from, many which can be sourced for nothing or close to it. Just look at all the posts in here from people asking "Where do I buy wood?" 

 

You can use the MSW search engine and read what is probably the most extensive collection of hands-on reviews and information on the Byrnes table saw anywhere on the internet. You aren't likely to see one in the flesh before you buy it unless you find your way to somebody near you who has one, or visit Jim Byrnes in Florida where he builds them. See: https://byrnesmodelmachines.com/ I do not expect anyone will argue with the assertion that there is no mini-saw available anywhere that comes anywhere close to the Byrnes table saw. It's as simple as that. Spending money on anything else means getting a lot less "bang for your buck." The Byrnes saw, while not inexpensive, it wicked accurate and an extremely high quality piece of machinery. There's no way anybody beats their personalized customer service. That's what one should expect from what is essentially a bespoke high-tolerance machine tool.

 

That said, I regret to inform you that if the reports from your countrymen are accurate, shipping, import duties, and taxes raise the cost of any machine from Byrnes Model Machines, or much of anything else from this side of the Pond, beyond what many feel they can justify spending. As I'm sure this situation affects everyone in in the UK similarly, you may be able to find a "work around" that makes it less painful for you than others have found those drawbacks to be.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Roger Pellett]

The ultimate wood for the fine detail work that you anticipate doing is Boxwood.  You live near a wonderful source of this for most of us ultra rare wood- the formal gardens of large country homes.  Sadly, many of these shrubs are dying from an invasive blight.  If you can connect with the gardeners that maintain these estates you should be able to get some of this wood that would otherwise be burned.  You would then need a small bandsaw to break it down into billets suitable for your Byrnes saw.

 

Roger

[Jaager]

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

If you can connect with the gardeners that maintain these estates you should be able to get some of this wood that would otherwise be burned

And, if you can pull this off, in your place, after looking back at missed opportunities, situations that I thought would always be there but were really a one time chance,  I would be greedy.  I would be very, very greedy.

[No Idea]

Fortunately for the OP they live in the UK and Castello boxwood is easily available in very handy sizes

 

https://shop.exotichardwoods.co.uk/boxwoods/page/4/

 

So you don't need to cut down or dry out your own wood.  You just need tools to shape what you want to make.  If you need to see the tools I don't live a million miles from you and if you're in the Midlands you are welcome to try out my tools.

 

Importing a Byrnes saw is not that big a deal - Jim has just made me an 18' table for mine.  I'm only a truck driver and I got it sorted out so it cannot be that expensive.  Just compare it to a set of golf clubs that my mates buy - you'll be quids in.  Luckily I don't play golf

[tkay11]

I wouldn't throw out the Proxxon FET table saw, especially as you are based in the UK. I own one, and though I often lusted after a Byrnes, the easy availability and lower overall cost of the Proxxon made my choice. I don't regret it. It has its quirks, but once I got to grips with the workings of its adjustments after a lot of experimentation, I am easily able to cut accurately to a tolerance of 0.1mm. You can buy an adapter if you need to buy blades of different widths but Proxxon do a good range of their own. You can cut wood up to 19mm thick, but if you turn it over and re-cut from the other side you can go up to 38mm.

 

Sure, the Byrnes is a lot better, but is it really worth that much more after shipping and customs are taken into account? I'd buy it like a shot if I were in America, but I'm not. I did buy the Byrnes draw plate and would strongly recommend that, though. There's nothing else to beat it.

 

The main things to look out for when using the Proxxon saw are:

* Making sure the fence is really at right angles to the table when in position and clamped.

 

* Recognising there are three controls for the fence. The order for adjustment being: clamping the slider very firmly in roughly the right position, and finally clamping the fence to the slider.

 

* Using feeler gauges to get to that last 0.1 mm

 

These Proxxon saws are used throughout Europe by the leading ship modellers, as well as the Proxxon MF70 mill which I also have. Axminster is a great source for refurbished items of the mill which they occasionally advertise on eBay. I got mine for £110.

 

When buying tools, it's probably best not to buy everything at once. I didn't. Over several years, after I had worked out that ship modelling was definitely for me, and at each stage when I discovered that an additional tool would indeed serve me well, I bought it. Wherever possible I researched eBay and looked for refurbished items. That way I could be assured of their use over time, and spread the cost over the years. I reckon that way I've spent on overall average roughly £150 per year on tools, and another £150 on books per year during that time.

 

I fully agree that getting or making for yourself a good set of chisels is one of the best things you could invest in, and learn how to sharpen.

 

Another thing you might look out for is an Axminster refurbished Proxxon DSH scroll saw. These regularly sell around the £90 mark. Lots of blades available for that.

 

I use a lot of other Proxxon tools as well: their micromot 50 drill, the smaller sander, the pen sander, footswitch and various vices (including the excellent Proxxon PM40 precision steel vice and their PMZ precision table clamping vice).

 

I would avoid the standard Proxxon drill stand (the cheapest one) as it is inaccurate and needs careful alteration to make it perfectly vertical: although I made sufficient adjustments to make it into a reasonable milling device, in the end I went for the MF 70 mill. Many modellers use their bench drills with much satisfaction.

 

Finally, if you want real icing on the cake, there is the Proxxon DH40 Planer Thicknesser -- but only if you are going to be cutting a lot of wood to very accurate thickness!

 

Chronos are often cheaper than Axminster for tools, and include the cost of shipping in their prices. Both are firms with excellent support and service.

 

Finally, although it's important to have the right tools, and even though you can pick up a huge amount of advice by using ship modelling fora and the internet, I have found books to be at least as important.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Tony

[Slowhand]

Well my initial post has started quite a discussion. Thanks ‘ No Idea‘ for all your comments. I know exotic woods and have visited the store, a veritable Aladdins cave. Milling wood is out of the question as I don’t have the space and all that dust from thickness sanding, the thought of it makes me itch. Although there’s plenty of cherry wood available as people love to block print the front drive over & chop down any trees, especially cherry where I live. So if I was making a deck grating and gun carriages the milling machine could do the notches/ profile into a block and the table saw could divide it into pieces although I could do both with a table saw. Yes I am extra careful with tools now, I’ve used band saws safely for a couple years but jabbed a wood carving gouge into my palm a month ago, the scar show 10mm wide with a sweep of 7!
 

Thanks  Tony, think I’ll visit Axminster and have a look at their stuff, and see what I think of the Proxxon table saw.

 

OPs edits of orig post

 

Bob C thanks for your comments, so you’re very firmly the table saw advocate, especially Byrnes and it seems the consensus is that the mini table saw is the most useful acquisition. I guessed it's a key piece of kit for a POF model for doing the frames and keels. Surprised it could be such as versatile tool but then what do I know it's beyond my experience.

 

Space issues mean a scroll saw and mini mill are off the agenda unless something changes although might treat myself to a disk sander.  Definely look at some small jigs for hand tools.

 

Jaager thanks for your input, you've pursuaded me against a mini mill.

 

 

Anyway to everyone a big thanks for all your help and suggestions I'll  keep this topic book marked  read it again, several times.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Slowhand
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[tkay11]

One thing I forgot. I find that I now use a hand-held coping saw far more than the electrical scroll saw. It needs no set up (other than a good home-made bench pin), and is very accurate, especially for the tiny pieces we often have to handle. It's also quite cheap!

 

Of course, you can do very well indeed without any of the electrical equipment (and many modellers do), but some of it, especially the table saw and drill with a stand, makes the work a lot faster and easier.

 

Tony

[SJSoane]

Not to make too complicated for you, I have found over the years that the Byrnes thickness sander is great for getting pieces to the right thickness, and the Byrnes disk sander for very accurately shaping joints (like the butt end of planks, corners on hatch coamings, etc). Tools can be mounted on pieces of ply or MDF, and put on shelves when not needed if space is limited.

 

I also agree with Tony about power scrolls saws. I finally gave up on my power scroll saw as too scary on small, thin pieces; it could grab and break a blade in a heartbeat. I always had to cut pieces out of much larger sheets to have something to hang onto, and this did not allow me to use up the endless small pieces that gradually accumulate. A good jeweler's saw and bench pin (I like the ones from Knew Concepts) and a little practice, and the hand tool is much more accurate, safer and quieter. The secret I finally discovered is to get good blades, and use the right size relative to the thickness of the piece you are cutting. I use Pegas skip tooth blades, often a #3 for the sizes I am cutting. I struggled in the past when I had too fine a blade for the thickness or vice versa. Around three teeth in the wood at any time is the useful rule.

 

The mill and lathe are great for making complex parts like the capstans, grates, steering wheel, etc. but a lot of this can be done with an accurate table saw and clever jigs, and also hand tools like files.

 

Ah, one of the great joys of life, tools...

 

Mark

 

[Slowhand]

 Thanks everyone, added my thoughts in my last post and will book mark the thread as a point of reference for the future.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Slowhand
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