Found this ship in dump

[Santa Rogge 1600]

Hello, 

 Not sure if I can get help here or not, but I found this ship in dump ,it is a spanish war ship I believe,brought it home and would like to clean it up and make repairs to it, is this a site where I could get the needed help as I have never done a ship before.

     Thank you,

            Lester

Ps I have pictures of it but not sure how to post them.

[mtaylor]

Welcome to MSW.   Here's a link to how to upload pictures.   There's quite a few pinned posts in that area on how to use MSW.

 

[allanyed]

Welcome to MSW Lester.   Looking forward to seeing your pictures.

Allan

[Santa Rogge 1600]

Thank you very much for the help.

[Santa Rogge 1600]

[Charles Green]

Lester:  

 

The replies forthcoming may not seem kind, but they will be honest and come from people, more knowledgeable than me, who know from what they speak.  

 

To begin with my two cents worth: The model is pleasant to look at, but it is unrepresentative of any historical vessel.  It resides in the category of 'dust catcher'.  Your work to restore it may give you pleasure, but no amount of work will elevate the model from that category.

[Santa Rogge 1600]

Thank you for your honesty,I appreciate that. I plan on doing a build in the future, but can't resist trying to clean this one up and trying to do the repairs to it.

[TOM G]

Yes, it's worth your time to make it "ship shape".

[AON]

Forgive my ignorance but I cannot see anything other than it needing a damn good cleaning and a dust protective display case.

I also think that if you like it, it is worth every bit of energy you are willing to put into it to bring it to the state you wish it were at.

I for one like it very much.

Great eye and good recovery (from the dump).

In my home town dump they would have tackled me and fined me, then took the model and try to sell it!  😁

[AON]

post a question in a forum topic like this one:

https://modelshipworld.com/forum/17-model-tips-and-tricks-and-making-jigs/

and ask for help on how to properly clean dust a model.

There is a technique with Q-tips, saliva, elbow grease and lots of time used by professionals.

Some might suggest how to safely do a first stage cleaning.

I've not done it, only been told and read about it and physically seen the before and results after.

 

[Bob Cleek]

What you have there is a "decorator's model" from the first quarter of the 20th Century, or thereabouts. It appears to be remarkably good condition. As of its one-hundredth birthday, it will be a genuine antique. Many of today's modelers turn their noses up at such models because they lack any historical importance (often being simply "impressions" of generic ship types) and, by today's modeling standards, are crudely built. That said, these models, built in Europe, often Germany or Spain, on a production basis for export as home decorative pieces, have become, or are now about to become, collectable antiques. It probably won't get you a starring role on Antiques Roadshow, but if you clean it up, taking care to preserve the patina it's earned over the last hundred years or so, you should end up with a nice example of this type of "decorator" model that anybody would be happy to display in their home library or "man cave." Mind you, it's not a six-figure museum piece, but in another hundred years or so, it should start to appreciate on the antiques market.  

 

I submit that the better examples of these "decorator" models, if they've lasted this long now, have earned the right to enjoy some measure of respect from the ship modeling community. They do have a certain "folk artsy" charm that should be appreciated. I think it should be noted that this is true of many ship models, dioramas, half-models and the like that are approaching the century mark. While they may not interest today's museum administrators, there are a lot of amateur and sailor-built unique scratch-built pieces from the first half of the 20th Century still in circulation that are, or will soon become, collectable in their own right.  

[vossy]

Definitely keep it and try to clean it up a bit. Who cares if it doesn't represent an actual real life vessel. I have numerous models that I have painstakingly made myself that are, to me anyway, good representations of historical vessels, and at least 3 versions of my favorite vessel, Santa Maria, which may, or may not, be good representations of her. No-one really knows as there are no verified pictures of her or Columbus for that matter. Who's to say that your find is not a true representation of an early vessel? Having said all that I also have a small wooden sailboat about 10 inches long that my sister bought for me about 6 years ago. It is a simple model with a solid hull, small square wooden cabin and a single mast and sail. It was carved on a beach in Queensland, Australia by a local craftsman from a single piece of driftwood and is among my favorite models.

 

If you like your find, clean it up, find it a place in your home, and treasure it.

 

[mtaylor]

Good advice from all the above.   I know they were selling those decorative models into at least the early 60's in many department stores here in the States.   It really doesn't look like it'll need repairing but just some TLC and cleaning.  

[Dr PR]

Bob brings up an interesting point about "collector items." Some collectors prefer the dirt and grime be intact as an indication of the item's age. They say you ruin the value if you clean an old object. Other people prefer a shiny clean piece.

 

You should just do what you like and not try to follow other people's rules.

 

Personally, as a microbiologist, I find the idea of using saliva to "clean" things disgusting. To me something that has been spit on is just filthy!

 

If you do try using a solvent (water, soap and water, alcohol, etc.) be careful. Those old paints might dissolve in the wash. So try it on an unexposed place first if you can find one.

[Louie da fly]

Hello and welcome. I fully agree with Bob Cleek's analysis. It's not a duplicate of a real ship, but it has racked up almost 100 years and should be appreciated if only for that. There have been a reasonable number of these "decorator" models restored by MSW members - for example 

 

and 

 

and 

Your restoration  is nowhere near as complex and difficult as the projects above. Your model is in remarkably good condition considering its age - the masts, ropes and sails are all amazingly intact - and in my opinion all you really need to do is dust and clean it. I've had great success with the saliva method on a restoration of my own - the only advice I'd give is spit into a small bowl or something similar to use as a reservoir - DON'T put the q-tip back in your mouth after cleaning the dirt off the ship . . . (yuk!)

 

By the way, the name-plate on the stand is in a difficult script - it actually says "Hansa Kogge" (the Hansa ports on the German coast were a major trading consortium in the Middle Ages - their name got incorporated in the name of the airline Lufthansa). Problem is, it's not anything like a Kogge (or cog) - they looked like this:

Your model looks like it's (very loosely) based on a galleon from the late 1500's.

 

But have fun with it. I think it's a very worthwhile project and familiarity with this model will give you a bit of a basis for understanding the way a ship like this works, when you come to build your own.

 

Best wishes with it,

 

Steven

 

[Charles Green]

Lester: 

The current issue of the Nautical Research Journal, Vol. 67, #3, features an article detailing a model of the Great Harry, Henry VIII flagship: an English ship from the same period as your model.  The article's subject is as accurate a depiction of that period's practices as current scholarship and the builder's research allows.  The Journal is the publication of the Nautical Research Guild, this site's sponsor.  Each issue has something of interest for any ship modeler.

 

The Carnegie library building back home, made of cut stone with molding and cabinet work of oak, was an imposing structure to me as a kid.  Once inside the library's heavy oak doors, my attention would go immediately to a model ship like yours, set high on top of cabinets, impossibly out of reach.  The model was thick with dust and had oxidized to a uniform brown color.  Obviously, it had never been touched since placed there.  That didn't stop me from wanting to see it up close.  It was a romantic, exotic thing.  I wanted to examine it, handle it.  As I came through the doors, the librarian would always catch my gaze as it went to the model.  She would wait for my attention to come to her.  Our eyes would meet; mine with hopeful, even pleading expectation of personally experiencing the model - hers with 'don't even think about it'.  My hopes were dashed every time I went to that library, as I'm sure were the hopes of any other kid like me.        

[Keith Black]

 Lester, welcome to MSW. Glad to have you aboard.

 

 You can view my restoration efforts on the same type of decorator model in the log below. Best of luck to you. 

 

 

 

[flutlo6180]

Hi Lester. Welcome aboard! 

[Santa Rogge 1600]

A big thank you to all who have replied, and helped me to decide on just a good cleaning,fixing what ropes I can, and building a display case for this model. The dump i got this at is in Sweden anything the workers think someone might want or can use, they put into a little building on shelves that people can go take anything they like.

      I greatly appreciate all the info, I can not wait to finish this and start on a build of my own.

        Lester 

[Peanut6]

Lester, the fact that you like it is all the matters.  You've rescued an antique artistic show piece from a cruel demise.  IMHO, it deserves every bit of respect that any 100 year old relic has earned, especially one as delicate as a model ship.  This ship will have the honor of being the starting point of your new hobby.  It will be an example in how modeling has changed over the last century and the difference between an "artsy-fartsy" show piece which was created for decoration and an accurate representation of an actual ship or at least the style of a particular class of ship.  Oh, BTW welcome aboard.  As you've seen, the awesome people here are full of encouragement and knowledge of the hobby that is readily shared to those who ask.  Let us know how you decide to clean/repair/restore your new found treasure and fill us in on your progress.  When you decide upon your first build, be sure to start a build log, it's a wonderful way to get help and help those who follow in your foot steps.  And by all means . . . enjoy the voyage.   

[Louie da fly]

On 10/22/2022 at 3:34 AM, Keith Black said:

You can view my restoration efforts on the same type of decorator model in the log below.

Keith, did you ever finish restoring the Amelia? I was following with great interest.

 

Steven

[Keith Black]

6 minutes ago, Louie da fly said:

Keith, did you ever finish restoring the Amelia? I was following with great interest.

 

 Steven, thank you for asking. Short answer is no. After posting the above the other day I put the Amelia on the worktable and thought to myself, I need to finish this project. So, after two and a half years of neglect I'm on a mission to finish her. I've sailed into the dreaded doldrums with the Tennessee so a change maybe just the ticket.

 

 A ragging debate is going on inside my head as I consider sails or no. I feel somewhat obligated to add sails as that is the way the model was finished. The original sails are rotten so new sails would have to be made. I'm not a big fan of sails as I think they hide a lot of the modeler's work.

 

 I would like to upgrade the rigging a tad with blocks (single only) but blocks weren't original to the model so that inner debate continues. Also, eyelets were not used, lines was simply tied off around nail heads. if I add blocks I would want to add eyelets as well. 

 

 I welcome all thoughts and suggestions.........please. 

[Louie da fly]

I'd vote for sails, despite the problems of having to make new ones and their hiding stuff. That's the way the ship was originally presented, and to be true to her you should probably go that way, though "weathering" the sails to duplicate the patina of the rest of the ship would probably be best.

 

Regarding the rigging, again it would probably be best to duplicate as far as possible the way it was first done.

 

My opinion only, however.

 

Steven

[Jaager]

2 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 I welcome all thoughts and suggestions

I do not see these decorator models as being actual ship models.  They are more a minimalist impressionistic version.  When viewed as being an actual ship model, they are absurd.  When viewed as impressionistic art,  some have a bit of charm.

I see merit in Bob's suggestion that there may be some value in the old ones, if they are what they originally were.

I see an attempt to add more authentic details when restoring a decorator model as totally missing the point of what these things really are.   That sort of "restoration" yields something that is neither fish nor foul.  It removes any value that the original may have.   The damage on the one that you have may too much to be a candidate for restoration.

Your time would be better spent on building an actual ship model from scratch.

[Louie da fly]

I agree with Jaager - the value to me is in restoring a model of this type to its original glory, rather than to try to make it "more authentic". I had a similar problem with my Great Harry restoration - I built it back in about 1967 when I knew a lot less, and my restoration is mainly bringing it back to the way it was when I built it, rather than to "correct" things I didn't understand at the time (I have to say I haven't been totally consistent with it, but generally I've tried to keep it to that.)

 

However, as this is Santa Rogge's thread I feel that if we want to continue talking about Keith's build it should go onto his build log from now on.

 

Steven

[Keith Black]

 Lester, my apologies for hijacking your log. 

[Admiral Nelson Monk]

Hey I was hoping for feedback like this when I posted pics of my ship, I guess mine was even worse than this guys!

[Louie da fly]

On 10/26/2022 at 10:28 PM, Admiral Nelson Monk said:

Hey I was hoping for feedback like this when I posted pics of my ship, I guess mine was even worse than this guys!

On the contrary, yours was in very good condition for its age. I don't think anybody realised you were asking for help restoring it, as you mentioned planning to get it done professionally. I'll put a reply up on your post - but apart from the loose lanyards for the shrouds, it does look pretty good already.

 

Steven