HMS Surprise by Navis Factorem - FINISHED - 1:75

[Navis Factorem]

Enough of the thinking, time for some doing!

 

My son came good at Christmas with a copy of the Brian Lavery/Geoff Hunt book "The Frigate Surprise", number 165 of the limited edition of 250 which includes the signed Geoff Hunt print, marvellous.

 

I have purchased a Scheppach Deco Flex scroll saw to cut out all those curvey bits.

 

The book includes lots of line drawings including the all important hull profiles which I will scan and enlarge to the right scale then transfer to ply for the internal framing. I intend a double plank on bulkhead method for the hull. I have built 2 hulls this way and like that the 2 layers gives a bit more scope for modification (fixing mistakes!).

 

Next will be creation of a list of timber needed to start.

 

Cheers.

 

David.

 

[Bugra]

Good luck with your build David. I'll be watching this build.

 

Cheers, Bugra

[clloyd]

Ahh - someone bitten by the scratch build bug! 

 

Good luck with the build!

 

Colin

[mtaylor]

I think I'll join the merry band of watchers.  Looks to be interesting.  <grabs chair and some popcorn>

[Navis Factorem]

Thanks for the encouragement. I hope that I can provide some entertainment, some of the more experienced builders may find my antics hilarious.

 

I think "scratch build" is just that, start off with a bunch of drawings and some ideas as to how to go about the process and learn lots on the way. 

 

I thought about the "plank on frame" approach but I like my models to look like ships so, as i will be fully planking the hull, all the work associated with the frames would be a bit lost.

 

I have started scanning hull profile drawings so I can enlarge them to the right size for my build.

 

Overall hull profile drawing.

 

Cross section profiles.

 

(Drawings from "The Frigate Surprise" Lavery & Hunt)

 

Cheers,

 

David.

[Navis Factorem]

Preparation of drawings is going well, I have the hull profiles and long section at 1:64. The hull is almost exactly 600mm long.

 

 

The work bench is getting a bit busy.

 

Cheers,

 

David.

[klimi]

Oh, hello again David.

is nice to see your decision, that you start with scratch build. Maybe it made your soon. I´m looking forward for your adds. Anyway, i saw your Bounty in gallery section and looks great. Is true that light and backround make a lot of all view on the ship.

good luck with your next beauty.

 

Pavel

[gjdale]

Think I'll pull up a chair for this one too. Pass the popcorn please Mark.

[ScottRC]

Great book and what looks to be the start of the great build.

[Navis Factorem]

Thanks for the comments, I think you may need a very comfy chair and a large serve of popcorn! And a lot of patience.

 

I picked up some 6mm ply for the false keel and bulkheads today, must be getting close to some scroll sawing.

 

Cheers.

[mtaylor]

No worries, David.  It's the nature of the hobby: a comfy chair, extra large bowl of popcorn, a selection of fine adult beverages and, of course, BUILD LOGS!!!!!

 

Ah... smell of sawdust in the morning... it smells like... shipbuilding!  (with apologies to Robert Duvall).

[uss frolick]

While you are building HMS Surprise, you will be allowed to talk like Preserved Killick.

 

Example:

 

Wife: "Honey, dinners ready! Put down your little boat."

 

You: "Which I'm coming, ain't I? Bleedin' wife sez do this, do that, poor old Killick ... I'll trade her in for a new wench at the horse fair, see if I don't ... Er ... Nothing ... Coming Dear."

[klimi]

Hey guys, do you also drink red vine in yours comfortible chairs

[Monarch]

Hi All I am enjoying a bottle of reserve Rioja reading this in my recliner chair but no popcorn though. Good luck David, I will be watching with great interest and envy.

 

Regards

 

Glyn

[Mayohoo]

Will follow with interest! Am kit building but would like to learn scratch building some day ;0)

[Navis Factorem]

Change of plans.

 

I finally worked out how big the 1:64 model was going to end up, about 1,120mm (44") long with the main yard 350mm (14") wide. Too big!

 

Time for a scale rethink. At the scale of the Mamoli kit, 1:75, the model is 845mm (33") long. This is what I will build to.

 

Fortunately, up to now, all the work has been drawing manipulation and scaling so no serious backtracking, I can use much of the information I have prepared by just changing the last calculation from 1:64 to 1:75.

 

These are the hull cross section profiles that the bulkheads will be based on.

 

Bow

 

Stern

 

Cheers,

 

David.

 

(If it all falls in a heap I will always have the 1:75 Mamoli kit to fall back on!) 

[Navis Factorem]

Looking at my log I just noticed that the title is now incorrect.

 

It should say 1:75, not 1:64.

 

Does anyone know how this can be changed?

 

Thanks and cheers,

 

David.

[mtaylor]

David,

 

I changed it for you.  If you ever need to change it again, go to the very first post and hit "edit" then hit "use full editor".  You can change the title there.

[Navis Factorem]

Thanks Mark,

 

Hopefully I won't have to change it again.

 

Cheers.

[clloyd]

1:64 is a comfortable scale, but still produces ships that are big enough to worry the admiral.  Be glad you aren't committed to 1/48!

 

Just to throw a thought your way....

 

1/75 is nice and metric.  1/72 is a multiple of 12 so may make scaling from the original a little neater.  Depends if you work in metric or imperial.

 

Colin

[Navis Factorem]

I'm fully metricated (apart from people's heights in ft & in and babies weights in lbs!) so 1:75 is easier for me.

 

Still working at the drawings and now have a set of hull profiles, long and cross sections and a top deck plan at 1:75 and they're all almost the same scale.

 

The hull planking is a bit of a mystery and I need to get this right as it will significantly affect the look of the hull.

 

The cross section in Lavery & Hunt (which I will now refer to as L & H) clearly shows a wale or step line increasing the hull thickness at the gun deck level but a gradual variation in thickness below this point. So now lower wale line.

 

From the point of view of those out there more knowlegeable than I is this likely to be the case? 

 

Hull cross section

(From L & H)

 

Cheers,

 

David.

[Navis Factorem]

My last reply seems to have got buried before any responses.

 

Can anyone assist please?

 

Cheers,

 

David.

[egkb]

Sorry David I can be of no help here except to suggest you take a look at the work of others on here who are doing similar frigates (Dan Vadas building HMS Vulture may be of help here, Vulture is 1776! and I suspect Surprise isn't too far from this date) Give him a PM he is very knowledgeable and not too far away from you either.

 

All The Best

 

Eamonn

[garyshipwright]

Hi David.

 

Need a bit of information sir on your Surprize and will see what I can come up with on the planking question. What year is she, were was she built and by whom? With those answer we can figure out how her planking may of been laid. There are a few Surprize's in David Lyon's book and knowing  what years,  will help located her in his book. If memory serves me she was French built and not English built so let me know and will see what I can come up with.

 

Gary

Edited February 6, 2014 by garyshipwright

[clloyd]

Hi David.

 

Need a bit of information sir on your Surprize and will see what I can come up with on the planking question. What year is she, were was she built and by whom? With those answer we can figure out how her planking may of been laid. There are a few Surprize's in David Lyon's book and knowing  what years,  will help located her in his book. If memory serves me she was French built and not English built so let me know and will see what I can come up with.

 

Gary

 

Gary - your memory is right - this is the Surprise, ex Unité.  That puts her as French built 1794.

 

David - that pattern of planking was typical for English ships (my knowledge of French techniques is scanty), where the planking immediately below the wale was nearly as thick as the wale and would decrease in thickness over about 9 strakes to the thickness of the planks at the bottom of the ship.  These IIRC were known as the diminishing strakes.

 

Colin

[garyshipwright]

Hi Colin.

 

Thank you sir for letting me know that my memory is ok for at least the moment.  David, have to agree with Colin sir and it is typical English planking and as David said is called thickstuff under the wale and the diminishing strakes. Took a look in the AOS Diana and shows the same type planking as on page 61.

 

Gary

[Navis Factorem]

To all who responded, thanks heaps, I will set up the bulkheads so there is a wale line step at the line of the gun deck.

 

No doubt one of the great strengths of MSW is the collective knowledge. As I progress I am sure I will asking a lot more questions.

 

The drawings in the L & H book show some of the details for the Surprise but there is a huge amount not shown.

 

I have been looking more carefully at the Lennarth Petersson (LP) book "Rigging Period Ship Models" and I think within there may be more information available over and above the rig. This book is based on a frigate and it seems to be quite similar to Surprise. The LP ship may have been French built like the Surprise. I understand that one of the clues can be the rake to the stern post. I understand that English built ships tended to have a more vertical stern post, French built raked about 10deg. The LP ship has a definite rake to the stern post.

 

I have been searching for information on the sizes of details like the mast tops and the LP book has a quite carefully drawn side view of the hull including lower mast sections and tops and another diagram shows the belaying plan for the tops. Once I work out a scale for the LP ship I should be able to get a good indication of the dimensions of the tops including thickness and also the length of the overlap between the lower masts and the topmasts.

 

It is a process of gradually assembling information.    

 

Cheers,

 

David.

[Navis Factorem]

Oops, reading a bit more I discovered that the LP ship is HMS Melampus, English built by James Martin Hillhouse of Bristol!

 

Live and learn.

 

Cheers.

[clloyd]

David,

 

There is a couple of ways to deal with the thickness of the planks.  The first is to use scale thickness planks - I did this on Pandora.  The wale planks were about 3" scale (from memory) and I just took each next strake through the ticknesser and thinned them down until they reached the 1.5" scale that the rest of the planks on the hull were.  The alternative is to widen the bulkhead by a proportionate amount which will allow you to use equal thickness planks.

 

If your budget allows pick up Goodwins "Construction and fitting of the Sailing Man of War".  This will take you through a lot of these things at a level that suits what you seem to want to do - for example the formula for determining the thickness of the planks based on the keel is in there.  You could use Steels ship builders vade mecuum (?spelling) (free pdf downloads available), but he is hard to read.

 

Lees "Masting and Rigging of the English Ship of War" is your rigging reference.  Peterson is great for visualizing the rigging and what it does, Lees will tell you exactly how things were done for the time frame you intend to build.  Lees will also help with things like mast tops.  Again Steel (masting) is available free, but takes more work.

 

If you plan on staying in the scratch build community these are all worthwhile investments, or things to put on birthday and christmas wishlists.

 

Colin

[mtaylor]

David,

 

Let's back up a bit... is this the English Surprize (Surprise) or the captured French ship renamed? The French had two methods of doing wales as far as I know.  One is similar to the English way.  The other is unique to the French.   The wales only stood proud at the top level.  below that, they tapered into the planking with no discernible difference to the planking.   However, if L&H show what you showed, I'd go ahead and use that cross-section.