HMS Victory by dafi - Heller - PLASTIC - To Victory and beyond ...

[dafi]

By the sources was she black until on the lower gundeck and the rest rosin until 1782 when the rosin parts were supposedly painted „Dull Yellow Ochre“, one of the standard color schemes of the period.

 

To add some confusion about the painting scheme, Turners drawings still give some hints that the spread of the colors was yet different ...

 

But that to a later point 🙂

 

XXXDAn

 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by dafi

[dafi]

Thank you for the great discussion, quite sure we will follow this still for quite a while, it might stay intriguing 🙂

 

So to not loose the fine nuances for colors as a contrast some black and white thinking.

 

To spread some light into why the port holes were planked over 🙂

Next thing first planking trials.

Still quite topsy-turvy but one can see the direction 🙂

XXXDAn

[amateur]

Digital painting. Ideal when science discovers that it was actually red and yellow in stead of black and white.

Why thoses small pieces above and under the upper gunports?

Jan

Edited January 6, 2019 by amateur

[dafi]

Just patches, to be omitted in the final version 🙂

 

 

 

[jeff watts]

23 hours ago, druxey said:

Nice theory, Jeff. However, earth colors like ochre are UV stable. (In paint technological terms, 'non-fugitive'.) Also, each layer of paint would be protected from UV light and atmosphere by subsequent coats of paint, so are preserved. I doubt if the conservators of the ship are in error. We just have to get used to the fact that the ship no longer fits our perception of her.

while earth colour will retain their stability for longer  the binders (linseed oil etc) which make the paint liquid and subsequently'dry out ' will crack and deteriorate to a point where the  appearance is almost powdery and bleached ,   where there are layers of paint over time being of the same colour through  their depths can be explained by the fact that in practice the re painting of a surface would only be done when needed , and so the fading would be right through the layers in a similar way  , just my theory , and obviously theres no way of proving it one way or another 

[Morgan]

Only it’s the Royal Navy so the rules are if it moves salute it, if it doesn’t move paint it! Nelson was of the view that flagships should be painted 4 times per year (others 3 times per year) - the point being they were in a constant state of painting, so I’m not sure how much an oil based surface layer could degrade in that time. I’m no expert but I would have thought the issue is more removing dirt than covering degraded paint.

 

Gary

[jeff watts]

very true sir ,  about painting everything , i didnt realise they would paint that often , puzzling , my only concern now is that ive already bought the ochre colour for my build  lol  

[Old Collingwood]

36 minutes ago, jeff watts said:

very true sir ,  about painting everything , i didnt realise they would paint that often , puzzling , my only concern now is that ive already bought the ochre colour for my build  lol  

I would be tempted to do what I did with my 18the century Frigate  - just lighten the Yellow Ocre by about  1/4  with dull white,  to achieve a more sedate dull  sandy yellow,  over the stock yellow ocre.

 

OC.

[Beef Wellington]

Lots of good discussion regarding colours!   I seem to be in a minority not finding the 'new' colour to be anathema and the basis for determining it entirely reasonable.  I wonder what 'evidence' there is/was for the prior colour… other than years of public display of a colour that was itself possibly just speculation.  I would love to be in the alternate universe where the current/past colours are reversed - probably exactly the same arguments 🙂

[Morgan]

9 hours ago, Beef Wellington said:

I wonder what 'evidence' there is/was for the prior colour… other than years of public display of a colour that was itself possibly just speculation.  🙂

Peter Goodwin sheds some light in his paper ‘The Application and Scheme of Paintworks in British Men-of-War in the Late Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth Centuries’ he says:

 

“Concerning the yellow currently used for the ship’s sides and other applications in the Victory, a letter dated 6 December 1805 from William Marsden, Secretary of the Navy Board, states that Commissioner Middleton, ‘submitted a proposal from Lord Nelson that the private ships in the fleet are painted three times a year and the flagships four times a year. The proportion of white paint to yellow is to be 6 lbs to 1 lb’.14 In short Nelson authorised a six-to-one mix of white and yellow, which would be so light as to verge on the colour cream.

The Victory in my time received many enquiries from enthusiasts and model makers concerning paint colours. There was particular interest in the exact shade of ‘yellow’ for the ship’s side and external works, and many thought that the current ‘ship’s side buff’ was ‘too orange’. It is understood that the decor experts at the Victoria and Albert Museum advised on the correct shade of yellow ochre some 35 years ago, though the exact shade may have ‘evolved’ since then.15 It has been noted that the current paint shade is remarkably similar to that used on the superstructures of Admiralty tugs and ancillary dockyard craft. 

 

Following the information disclosed in William Marsden’s letter, experiments in collaboration with the marine artist Gordon Frickers were undertaken to determine the resultant colour from a six-to-one mix in oils, employing different base tints of yellow ochre oil paint. The results confirmed suspicions that ‘ship’s side buff’ is too orange, and he has since applied this more accurate pale yellow to a new work entitled ‘Nelson at Gibraltar’.”

 

Like a lot of the 1920’s restoration pre-conception ruled the thinking despite evidence to the contrary (you see the same with the Trincomalee restoration). Someone probably said ‘they used yellow ochre’ without thinking about shade and we end up with the deepest yellow! If you look at contemporary artists like Constable and Tuner who saw the ship you get a pale yellow / almost cream. If you look at artists like Pocock he seemed to paint from the 1765 model so you get something entirely different and wholly wrong for 1805. Interestingly Turner took a lot of stick for his Trafalgar painting (waterline wrong, ships positions wrong, wrong time of day, etc.) a lot of which was from naval officers, but no one ever said you got the colour wrong.

 

It is also worth looking at Gordon Frickers work that Peter Goodwin mentions, his experimentation shows something between the yellow we all grew up with and the paler Turner / Constable colours, but again this is just hypothesis.

 

Gary

 

 

[dafi]

On 1/5/2019 at 10:46 PM, Morgan said:

One more thought, the period of the Nelson Chequer prior to the 1922 luminous orange colour 😁 was relative short. It applied from the 1803 refit to 1814 at the latest, as from this date the bands were white, not ochre. So assuming during the Baltic years she remained in Nelson’s colours, only a maximum of some 11 out of 250 years did she have ochre stripes.

Funny enough most modelers build the version that: 

- existed the shortest time

- that is the least documented 

 

But on the other hand modelers have the tendency to be stubborn to new research. But still these changes often contradicted with other knowledge or was soon to be revised like the stern davits on and off and other features. But on the other side, do not forget that we all here are rivet counters and the job the curators did since 1920 really succeeded in bringing the feeling of the old seafarers to the "normal" people, to keep the history alive, no matter all the details we say "THEY" did "WRONG". 

 

XXXDAn

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hy folks, just one little point to the layers of paints in the RN:

Ships were so often painted, that they added remarkably displacement over the years by the ammount of paint. (Steam, Steel and Shellfire - Gardiner/Lambert)

Edited January 7, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added source

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

5 minutes ago, dafi said:

Funny enough most modelers build the version that: 

- existed the shortest time

- that is the least documented 

 

But on the other hand modelers have the tendency to be stubborn to new research. But still these changes often contradicted with other knowledge or was soon to be revised like the stern davits on and off and other features. But on the other side, do not forget that we all here are rivet counters and the job the curators did since 1920 really succeeded in bringing the feeling of the old seafarers to the "normal" people, to keep the history alive, no matter all the details we say "THEY" did "WRONG". 

 

XXXDAn

 

[Morgan]

43 minutes ago, dafi said:

do not forget that we all here are rivet counters and the job the curators did since 1920 really succeeded in bringing the feeling of the old seafarers to the "normal" people, to keep the history alive, no matter all the details we say "THEY" did "WRONG". 

I agree, I very much doubt people would have been inspired by a true 1805 wartime Victory reconstruction, such an austere brooding apparition would not have the grace or beauty of the ship as she is, the 1920’s reconstruction whilst not accurate certainly brings the crowds flocking.

 

That said I’ll be looking to build as true an 1805 version when the Amati 1:64 kit becomes available.

 

Fot those who haven’t seen the NMM 1803 half block model the here it is, this is a fair approximation of what she would have looked like.

 

Gary

[Morgan]

Just to update on the latest discussion here on Dafi’s thread I’ve posted some information from the Curator of HMS Victory on the following thread which details how the researchers established the new colour scheme.

 

Gary

 

[Old Collingwood]

This is the shade I created for my frigate  starting with Admiralty Paint range of Yellow Ocre  then I added the same makes Dull White, of  about  3 parts yellow and one part white.

 

OC.

[dafi]

Thanx Gary and OC, I will come back to this!

 

Smoothed up every thing and did the port frames.

 

 

 

XXXDAn

[dafi]

On 1/7/2019 at 2:29 PM, Morgan said:

I agree, I very much doubt people would have been inspired by a true 1805 wartime Victory reconstruction, such an austere brooding apparition would not have the grace or beauty of the ship as she is, the 1920’s reconstruction whilst not accurate certainly brings the crowds flocking.

 

That said I’ll be looking to build as true an 1805 version when the Amati 1:64 kit becomes available.

 

Fot those who haven’t seen the NMM 1803 half block model the here it is, this is a fair approximation of what she would have looked like.

 

Gary

Thank you Gary, as a good example for the possible color - I always saw this as white and not the creamy tint that it actually is - I would just renew my suspicion about the identification of the model. 

 

See https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/6044-wrong-identified-models-of-hms-victory-in-nmm/&do=findComment&comment=175377

 

XXXDAn

Edited January 14, 2019 by dafi

[Morgan]

Hi Dafi,

 

I was really highlighting the general appearance and colour scheme as matching what Victory looked like rather than proposing this being a specific facsimile, in fact the colour scheme is closer to Turner’s Trafalgar painting than any other I’ve seen (bearing in mind he produced 2 versions and the colours vary between the two which doesn’t help).

 

I also know the reservations you have over the 1803 half block and the 1805 models, and I’ve also superimposed the Victory plans and see the mismatches, however I’m not hung up over this, I’m inclined to view these post-build models as an aesthetic aid rather than an accurate structural record.  I think this is particularly true of the 1803 model, as the date of the development of the model probably pre-dates the refit. So in my opinion these are not ‘as-built models’, but rather designed to convey an idea of the desired changes or modifications in general.

 

Certainly the 1805 model has greater credibility, and interestingly both Lavery and Goodwin reference this model as representing the intended appearance of the Victory post refit, however they also accept that the full intention of the refit was cut short and not completed, hence the differences on the stern in particular.

 

Also, have you looked at the Union and Boyne plans at the NMM? These were developed from the lines of the Victory, and the 1803 refit was intended to establish the re-fitted Victory as the prototype for future Second Rates. 

 

I also know you reference the issues with the entry port, and the 1805 model shows no entry port, whereas the 1803 model does, as do the Union plans, however, my preference is to rely on artists contemporary sketches, I know Turner has previously been referenced, but neither Constable nor Pocock show an entry port. I accept the issues with plans and models and intention vs. as-built, and I also accept the issues with the painters ‘stylised’ approach. But I think their sketches are believable as these are just  raw ‘data capture’, the contentious issues arise with the subsequent paintings.  It is highly unlikely that 3 such marine artists all missed a prominent feature, given they all saw her first hand between 1803 and 1806. 

 

Gary

[dafi]

Do not worry Gary, I got it absolutely right what your intention was and I am always very thankful of well founded informations.

 

I only point out the suspected mislabeling on a regular base, as we already had a lot of discussions on other details like the number of the stern windows of theses models as they proves that the Vic in P. is completely wrong in theses aspects ...

 

Some details of the 1803 block model can also be observed in the turner drawings like the carvings on the cutwater 🙂

 

Cheers, Daniel

[dafi]

Found some time to tinker a bit on that exotic gem 🙂

 

Got a signal gun - one of 6 on the ship for salutes - and one historical barrel. The rest will be windows. The gun is a self made brass one made in my Dremel to give it a slightly conical shape. Also the chainboards with the accurate number and position for the irons is there together with the small port that gives access to the shrouds.

 

 

 

 

A child that only a mom is able to love - or a dafi 😉

 

XXXDAn

[William-Victory]

Where and how re you finding all of the figures you use?  I need crew figures. 

I'm using Architectural figures.  Half are women and the men are so similar to each other they look repeated.

 

Mostly I need more dynamic action like gunners etc.

 

[mtaylor]

Try looking here also, William:  

 

[dafi]

Thank you all for Comments and likes, very appreciated!

 

All figures are Preiser 1:100. See in earlier posts how they were made :-)

 

Somehow Fast-Food-Tinkering does not work for me somehow.

 

I already started planking the outside with poly but could not find a pattern for the width of the planks - Frustration taking over ...

 

Then I realised that as I cutted the ports "free hand - first sight" was the problem, as the planks are following - unlike the 1765 original planking - exactely the row of the ports. So considered a second (or even more look) to get things straight and realised taht all planks have more or less same width. So I took the illustrtion programm and started to push the measures until it fitted the photographs and suddenly it all worked out. 21 cm planks it was what I needed and some correction on the ports.

 

 

Also Business as usual - removing the first trial of planks :-)

 

 

New planks were cut ...

 

 

... ports newly defined ...

 

 

... cleared with plenty of blood, sweat and tears ...

 

 

.... and cut free.

 

Just see on the inside of the ports the difference to the first fit :-O

 

 

Fixed the first goodies, soon more about that :-)

 

 

And here we go, twice the same section of hull, just a bit more than 100 years of difference.

 

XXXDAn

[druxey]

I'd like to pick up on an earlier point about color (post #1687). Specifically, the comment about Turner's paintings. As we know, Turner was obsessed with the effects of light and atmosphere. Now, what he was recording was a perception of color. Objects have a specific color, called local color by artists. Depending on the quality of light falling on an object its apparent color as we perceive it changes.

 

For instance, think of a 'red' ball. Its surface properties will reflect the red wavelengths of the visible light spectrum and absorb the others. So, the ball appears red under white light or red light. Both varieties of light contain the red part of the spectrum. However, shine green light on it and it will appear dark brown. Very little light is reflected as the red portion of the spectrum is missing in green light.

 

So, Turner was playing with color as it is perceived under different lighting conditions. He was not concerned with ship modelers 200 years later! Which color in his paintings is 'correct', then? Neither and both!

[dafi]

Thank you Druxey. Also he simply did not bother about the facts, just see the "Fighting Temeraire" on her last journey, masts still up. 

 

But anywhere we had a great discussion on our german forum about his work concerning the Vic. Highly interesting. Those who are inscribed to our forum see here:

HMS Victory - Spurensuche

https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t7001f1475-HMS-Victory-nach-Trafalgar-ein-letzter-Zeuge.html

https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t6980f1475-Turners-Deckszeichnungen-der-Victory-reloaded.html#msg152838

https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t5671f1475-William-Turner-quot-The-Victory-From-Quarterdeck-to-Poop-quot.html

 

Please find the translate button on the left bottom corner 🙂 

 

XXXDAn

 

 

[Morgan]

I agree with Druxey’s comments.  By way of example I purchased some enamel paint mixed to the recently identified Victory colours, and the tonal range of the tan / salmon pink / [insert your own description here!] under different lighting conditions is extreme. You can see why it has received such varied reviews from the public.  The enamel is only 5% gloss, so low sheen, however I then put a satin varnish on the samples and the tonal range changes yet again as it reacts to light - last photo.

 

The black is also that identified by the scientists and is a very dark charcoal grey.

 

Gary

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Morgan
Typo

[William-Victory]

I was supposed to be looking for the figures and how you made them Dafi.

But I get hypnotized by all the amazing work you do.  Amazing is really an understatement.  I'm really not articulate enough to describe the work I see on your build.   In fact my English is reduced to one statement...  "Oh my god, WOW!"

 

Are you a genius or what?

[dafi]

8 minutes ago, William-Victory said:

"Oh my god, WOW!"

 

Are you a genius or what?

You gave the answer to your last question "... or what?" already one line up 😉

Thank you all, very appreciated all your great input!

 

XXXDAn

Edited March 7, 2019 by dafi

[dafi]

And then was time for some dafinition of the details.

 

Next was to put some primer to see the new rigols.

 

 

Both guns and first window - still has to be improved ...

 

 

Also the cases for the hammocks were redone.

 

 

XXXDAn