Newsworthy updates from Chris Watton

[chris watton]

I can't really say too much about this particular development at this stage, but I don't think it's going to replace the Greek warship - this new one is much later, about 4-450 years later and much larger. (180 oars in all) and designed for both long and short range warfare, with a plethora of PE decoration in keeping with its capital ship status.

 

The existing 1:1 trireme plans weren't much use, to be honest, not after researching the differences, so I started completely from scratch, which is a first for me - having to make my own line drawings before even starting the designs.

[Kevin]

must be difficult to spend time on a project, where the final result - is based on guess work, but it is certainly going to be a great build, and something different

[druxey]

Well, that is a nice change for you as well as the kit market!

[chris watton]

must be difficult to spend time on a project, where the final result - is based on guess work, but it is certainly going to be a great build, and something different

 

It is fun and quite rewarding, as you learn a lot more than normal. I think that every model you see from this era is based on 'guess work', but it is educated guess work by interpreting the sources used. Hell, no one really knows and debate still rages about what the Mary Rose really looked like at the time of her capsizing, and that's over a millennium and a half after the Roman Quinquireme - we even have to make educated guesses for some of the decoration used on ships from only 2 centuries ago!

 

So for the Roman ship, I had to rely solely on experts' interpretation of the sources regarding the vessels' likely appearance, taking into account the era, the armament carried, length/breadth rations, rowers and oar configurations - and of course, we still have Roman art and iconography that show these vessels.

 

I could of course just have copied the lines from other kits and 'beef up' the designs, but that's not really what I do - at least doing my own research, I am unlikely to copy (possible) mistakes made by others. I have always preferred to start completely from scratch using my own methods and am not at all interested in how other's do it - and I hope this shows with the stuff I do.

 

[overdale]

"I think that every model you see from this era is based on 'guess work', but it is educated guess work by interpreting the sources used. Hell, no one really knows and debate still rages about what the Mary Rose really looked like at the time of her capsizing, and that's over a millennium and a half after the Roman Quinquireme"

 

Nice work Chris. It's amazing to think that a huge entity like the Roman Empire, in existence for centuries has such little reference to it's ships, the things that generated and maintained virtually all it's wealth. I have had similar problems trying to find information on roman merchant vessels. There seems to be only one accepted image of a commercial ship which has a large swan attached to the stern. While I'm sure such vessels did exist, I'm also pretty sure that not every merchant ship had a swan for a stern but that's all we have. Very frustrating. I wonder if Amati might be persuaded to remedy that situation with a roman merchant vessel subject? You would be just the man to deliver it. 

 

Dan.

[chris watton]

I wouldn't mind doing a Roman merchant vessel in the future, as they seem to be a more conventional hull form.

[d'brat]

Does anyone else look at this topic first thing to see what's new and inspirational? And are you disappointed like me if the update is just a non-informational comment like this one?  My stash is building up for the day when Chris' newest design hits the market.

[Fam]

"..., I'm also pretty sure that not every merchant ship had a swan for a stern but that's all we have. Very frustrating. I wonder if Amati might be persuaded to remedy that situation with a roman merchant vessel subject? You would be just the man to deliver it. 

 

Dan."

Hi Dan

are you meaning something like this?

It's the reconstruction of a late roman trade ship (empire age, end of 1st century b.C.), the original is in quite good state of conservation in a dedicated museum in Comacchio city, close to Ferrara.

The museum shows all what was found during the excavation of the relict, including the full load, the ballast, crew personal belongins, etc., and also shows a recostruction model of the whole ship and a recostruction model of the relict (that is not visitable by the public) with lot of fantastic details (see second picture).

 

Regards

Fam

[overdale]

Exactly what I was talking about. Thanks for posting that Fam. I shall make further enquiries..!

 

Dan.

[druxey]

Thanks for making us aware of this archaeological find and the models, Fam.

[Jaxboat]

Couple of comments. I think the majority of Roman merchantmen with Swan Necks were the large grain carriers that ran from Egypt to Rome. The other interesting thing is that after Actium, Roman galley sizes actually got smaller. They made use of a design called a Liburnian which was modelled after the swift boats coastal pirates used. It made sense because, for at least 300 years after Actium, there was no other notable naval power in the Med or "Mare Nostrum" as the Romans called it.

Best

Jaxboat

[Fam]

Hi all

per description panels in the museum, the boat I showed above was part of a small flottille owned by Marco Vipsanio Agrippa, general, admiral of the sixth fleet and brother-in-law of Emperor Ottavianus Augustus.

It has been dated to 12 b.C. thanks to several inscriptions found in the cargo.

It was designed to sail along the sandy shores of the upper western Adriatic Sea and upstream the Po river, that's the reason for the flat bottom and shallow hull.

It sunk during a storm (probably it was unsuitable to heavy sea conditions) and was almost immediatly covered with very fine sand and mud, that explains the perfect status of conservation of wood, vegetal fibers, leather and food found in the relict.

It was descovered in 1981 during the maintenance works of the Valli di Comacchio channels (Valli di Comacchio is a preserved natural area with lot of swamps and channels, famous for the flamingos).

Her name was 'Fortuna Marii'.

 

The cargo was more than 200 amphors, containing oil, wine and wheat and several tenths of lead ingots (from Agrippa's property mines in Hibernia - Spain: Agrippa's name is carved on them) used as ship ballast, but intended to be sold along the river trip to be melted and reused for lead water plumbing.

 

The hull is built with two techniques: below the waterline the planks were "sewn" to the frames with vegetal fibers ropes, and made waterproof with tar; above the waterline the tenon-pin technique was used to join the planks. All these parts have been found, are still present in the conserved relict but are not visible to the public because the relict is conserved into a bed of demineralized water, at constante temperature and protected from sun light.

The building technique started from the keel laying, then the first planks (garboard?) were joined to the keel, the frames pieces added above the planks and sewn to them and to the keel. The frames were built at the same time as the planks were joined creating the shape of the hull, which is the opposite of the technique we are accustomed to.

She had one mast and a squared sail (parts of it have been found!) and twin side rudders. There is an open cargo compartment and a sort of enclosed cabin for the crew (covered with cotto tiles). The anchors and several blocks were also found in situ.

 

I have several pictures taken at the museum, should anyone be interested in.

 

Here is the link to the city webpage, with some infos, directions and pictures:

http://195.62.166.245/comacchio/common/AmvSezione.do?MVPD=0&MVSZ=42

 

Ciao

Fam

Edited March 3, 2014 by Fam

[Torchy]

Hi Chris

I've just started your lovely Vanguard kit which I intend to build as the Bellerophon,why is it that the "Billys" stern moldings are a not really nice three part white metal affair that will be hard to clean up while the Vanguard and the Elephant are splendid one piece resin jobs?

Any chance of this being rectified?

Andy

[freewheelinguy]

Andy,

 

Don't know if you have the newer kit where the Vanguard and Elephant white metal pieces are now made from resin.  The Billy regretfully is three pieces where they only had to make a new mold of just the center (you will notice the left and right are the same as the Vanguard.  And regretfully again the Billy was just left as is.  This is also a shame because the stern does need to be slightly curved and the white metal pieces aren't bending. Plus the three pieces don't match up well.  I am building this model and made my own individual pieces from clay.  I'm sure Chris will get back to you when he can.  

 

Len 

[CTDavies]

^{Question here for Chris Watton. This was originally posted at AEW's Vanguard build but he recommended asking Chris here as well. The Vanguard being an Arrogant-Class design is very similar to the Bellona-Class, if not even a direct copy. Would it be possible to convert the Vanguard kit to a Bellona-Class design? I know there are differences in the decorations, but I'm hoping the rest may be pretty much the same. I think I read somewhere that there were a few changes around the bow only, but I could be wrong. If Chris could enlighten me, that would be very nice.}

^{I would also like to say that this thread is the one I check out most frequently, to see Chris' progress on his Victory and to find news on a pending Victory Models Bellona kit. That Bellona in the picture on the first post here of Chris' Bellona is one of the most beautiful models I have ever seen.  Chris (another one)} 

Edited March 8, 2014 by CTDavies

[captainscott]

Yes I agree with you. The Bellona is a must have kit for me. It is a gorgeous model, Chris can build them that is for sure.

[chris watton]

Thanks, guys

 

Yes, the Vanguard kit could be modified for Bellona, they are both virtually identical in shape and size - the only real differences being superficial, and therefore easily changed.

 

I thought all of the cast stern decoration for Vanguard, Bellerophon and Elephant were now changed to resin!

 

@Fam - very interesting post, thank you

 

ETA - just tried linking some pics of Roman galley, but still won't let me, and I haven't time to type in the whole address manually...

Edited March 27, 2014 by chris watton

[Torchy]

Thanks for the reply Chris,do you reckon Amati would replace my white metal Billy decoration with a resin one?

Andy

[chris watton]

 

Thanks for the reply Chris,do you reckon Amati would replace my white metal Billy decoration with a resin one?

Andy

 

 

I don't see why not. Just email them.

 

(I haven't got any, being almost 1000 miles away and in another country..)

 

[chris watton]

Right, these have just taken ages to type in, as I can't cut and paste.... Latest pics of progress, all the deck stuff is dry fitted and needs more work before gluing in place....

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2014 by chris watton

[42rocker]

Very Nice Looking.

 

Later Tim

[WackoWolf]

This I like very much, now post more pictures if you can Please. And Thank you for sharing this with us.

[Timmo]

Nice work Chris - as always

[chris watton]

This I like very much, now post more pictures if you can Please. And Thank you for sharing this with us.

 

Cheers

 

I added another pic.

 

All of the curved parts are laser cut - I wouldn't like to try and bend planks to such a curve, and I certainly wouldn't think other modellers would, too - so the front and back is very easy to assemble, as is the main hull sides with the outriggers and oar ports - all pre cut. All of the panels are, too (including the inner and outer bulwarks), so no need to cut and glue lots of thin strip.. The only skills involved are very basic, planking the lower hull with lime strips and then going over the rest with 1x5mm walnut strips - you don't have to paint it, but if you're crap at planking like me, it looks better painted....

 

I have added a boarding platform at the front, as the cumbersome 'corvus' was used only for a very short length of time during the first Punic wars - where it was found that the centre of gravity was heavily compromised and many ships were lost because of this - it seems a more sensible 'boarding-bridge' was used, instead.

[Jaxboat]

Chris,

Thanks for clarifying about the Corvus. I almost sent you a question about it. Interesting to compare the style of this Roman galley to the earlier Greek models. The roman vessel is quite a  bit more robust.

Regards

Jaxboat

[Mirabell61]

Chris,

 

Lovely work !

it is such a delight to look at the different models you are representing, I understand that you build the prototypes that most probably shall be produced as Amati kits. These models are masterly drawn and must be a pleasure to build due to the well experienced Details brought into the final execution of the kits. You certainly are Setting the bar very high to an anbitious Level in skill. Thanks for showing These wonderful builds.

 

Cheers

 

Nils

[chris watton]

Thank you!

 

I only design them that way because I want an easy ride, too, when I have to build the prototypes!

[chris watton]

Chris,

Thanks for clarifying about the Corvus. I almost sent you a question about it. Interesting to compare the style of this Roman galley to the earlier Greek models. The roman vessel is quite a  bit more robust.

Regards

Jaxboat

 

I actually started off by buying and using the plans from the full size Greek trireme. However, after buying more resource material, I quickly realised that if I were to follow the trireme plans, I would be designing a ship that would be the equivalent of using a set of medieval cog plans as the basis  to build a late 18th Century ship of the line! There is almost 500 years difference in age. The more I read, the more I realised just how much these vessels changed, much of it via battle experience.

 

The Quinqueremes at the beginning of the 1st Century AD were the equivalents of the ship of the line, and quite large and built for both offensive and defensive duties (although with the Romans, usually offensive...) - but once Rome conquered the Mediterranean, such large vessels became obsolete (as there were no more real enemies to fight) and only smaller vessels were usually built. I thought it would be good to try and design this type as it represents a Roman warship at its absolute prime, and wouldn't have looked out of place at the battle of Actium. 

 

[Kusawa2000]

Chris: Again..as always... thanks for sharing these great pics.. Its great to see the efforts taken in the detail on the prototypes.. I hope you keep the pics coming.. any news yet on release dates for any new kits? Just curious to hear if the Bellona is going to be out there on the shelves anytime soon.. again. thanks for the great pics

 

Mike Draper

Whitehorse, Yukon

Canada

[chris watton]

Thank you!

 

I can confirm that this will be an Amati kit, and they want it released as soon as I have finished!