Louie da fly

I've had a brief look through the article, and though this isn't my primry area of interest, the author certainly make a good point - summed up in the quote "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". I'll have to make time to read it in full.

Binho, there's a very interesting article on all this at https://www.academia.edu/29671878/Bayonese_cogs_Genoese_carracks_English_dromons_and_Iberian_carvels_Tracing_technology_transfer_in_medieval_Atlantic_shipbuilding

Well, 3d printing's another great idea. I still don't think in these terms all that easily. I haven't met Roland, but it's quite a few years since I was into re-enacting - the only place I'm likely to have met him would be at the Battle Of Hasting re-enactment in the UK in 2000 or 2006, and if he was there he would have been among 1100 re-enactors. Possible. Certainly an interesting theory, but impossible to prove, particularly since most of these swords have been under the ground for hundreds of years, subject to all kinds of uneven pressures. But certainly a possibility, which I haven't heard of before. I think you're on the right track with the rivets - it's like treenails;most of the time they'd be all but invisible and it's debatable whether they should even be shown on models. It will take a fine hand . . .

Yes, that would be rather confusing to all concerned (if they understood French!) I'd agree with you about tacking - I don't think it would happen, they'd only be wearing, but as Mark points out, that means the danger of gybing (even with what is the equivalent of a loose-footed sail) which could capsize the vessel rather too easily. Vangs appear on many, but not all pictures (both contemporary, and modern photos) of lateeners I've been able to find. I expect it's intended to keep the upper end of the yard from swinging too far to one side or the other. Dropping the halyard may well be faster, and it seems to be a fairly common practice on dhows, from the photos I've got. In fact it looks in this photo like the sail may be hauled up unfurled, fbut it's a bit hard to be sure whether the unfurled sail is attached to the yard they're hauling up or behind it. But the second photo seems to indicate the sail is down near the deck but unfurled. Yep. So it can be done (no rope ladders on my model). And yes, I've thought of adding a figure doing that, but it would be difficult to keep him from spinning around with only a single rope keeping him in place. There's no sign of "crows nests" until about the middle of the 13th century, much too late for my dromon. So any lookout would have to perch at the top of the mast any way he could . . . or maybe he could sit on the yard;

Thanks for that information, Binho. I didn't know about that. I wonder if there were differences in construction depending on when the ship was built, as well?

Looking good, Adam

Thanks, Liteflight. I'm still thinking about the final configuration, but I have to say the guys hoisting the sail is appealing to me more and more. Oh, yes, I can see myself doing that - Quninquireme of Nineveh from distant Ophir, Rowing home to haven in sunny Palestine, With a cargo of ivory, And apes and peacocks, Sandalwood, cedarwood, ... Um . . . the song is alouette (lark), not allumette (matchstick). Makes much more sense that way. Apparently was used to teach soldiers French during WWII. It's a bit graphic, though, if I understand the words correctly - Lark, pretty lark, I'll pluck you . . .

Looking really good. I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with the ocean and the weathering.

I'd agree with you, Mark. However, in Björn Landström's book The Ship there's a copy of a 16th century watercolour by Rafaello (no, not the turtle) showing a galley (almost certainly just as unstable as a dromon) doing just that. It would take a fair bit of skill, I should imagine, to reduce the suddenness of the force as the sail changes position. But my experience in sailing is so minimal that I can only theorise. Landström is of the opinion that this watercolour was done using a model, but I'm hoping we can assume Rafaello actually did paint a manoeuvre he'd seen in real life.

Glad to be of service.

That's a fairly ambitious first build, though certainly quite a few people have started on something that complex and succeeded. On the other hand, a whaleboat such as the Model Shipways one - there's a build log here - might be a better project to begin on and develop the skills which will stand you in good stead when you move up to bigger and more complicated things, without being too overwhelming to start with.

Welcome to MSW, Jim! When you start your build, make sure you also start a build log. It will give you access to advice and help from the members here as well as us getting to see your build in progress. Here'show to do it: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/24705-before-you-post-your-build-log-please-read-this-starting-and-naming-your-build-log/ And don't get too intimidated by other people's builds. There's a broad range of expertise here, from the complete newbie to people who can produce models of museum quality (and the latter seem to be amongst the most helpful people on MSW, I've found). Jump right in, and have fun with it!

Welcome to MSW, Aaron! I've done a bit of work with bone and horn myself. Earlier in life I did mediaeval re-enactment and I've made combs and other artefacts from antler, but nothing of the quality you're doing. Choose something simple to start off with. Too many people start on something hugely complicated and intricate, get frustrated and disappointed and give it up. But if you begin with a relatively simple model, get success with it, you can then go on to the more advanced models as your skills and understanding improve. And once you've decided what to make, be sure you start a build log as well, so others can see your progress and give help, encouragement and advice. The instructions on how to start one are here: And you may have noticed that there are sections of the forum for questions on specific aspects of a build,such as planking, sails and rigging etc. If you have a question, this is often the place to go.

Hi Salem, and welcome to MSW. There are instructional videos online. Google artesania latina swift 1805 instructions. There are quite a few videos out there - from a quick look through them it looks like you might have enough information just from these to be able to build the ship. When you start your build, make sure you start a build log as well. It's a great way to get help,advice and encouragement. (It also lets us see another beautiful model under construction). Instructions on how to start your log are at https://modelshipworld.com/topic/24705-before-you-post-your-build-log-please-read-this-starting-and-naming-your-build-log/ You're bound to make mistakes at some point or other. Don't get too disheartened by them; we've all been there. Most of them can be repaired - and those that can't - well, treat it as a learning experience which you can apply to your next model. The members here are very supportive and helpful. And have fun with it - that's what it's all about.

Welcome to MSW, Lynn. A number of ex-archers here, apparently (including me). Yes, when you start your build, make sure you also start a build log. It's a great way to get help, encouragement and advice. And the problems you encounter may already have been solved by someone else.

Thought you might find this interesting:

Well, I'm afraid I'm waffling a bit whether to have the sails set. Bigpetr's question got me thinking - do I know they used the sails while they were rowing, did I read that somewhere, or is it just an assumption on my part? If I can't remember where I got the idea, maybe I'll never be sure I have it right. So I did a bit of investigating; unless I read all the way through Pryor's book Age of the Dromon I'm not likely to find the reference (if there is one). I'm prepared to do that, but it's going to take a while. In the meantime the pictorial record does provide some evidence. Here are some Byzantine representations of dromons with both oars and sails in use: from the 9th century Sacra Parallela BNF Gr. 923 f. 207r and the 12th century illustrated copy of the Synopsis Historion of Ioannis Skylitzes held in the Biblioteca Nacional in Madrid (yes, I do believe that's a sail). And one from the fifth century AD Roman Aenid of Vergil in the Vatican Library (Cod. Lat. Vat. 3867, fol. 77r) which is a little early, but a galley is a galley . . . the 12th century Spanish Cantigas de Santa Maria, and the late 12th century Italian Liber ad honorem Augusti (f. 131) However, there are also plenty of contemporary pictures of galleys, and not only in combat, without sails set, and in most cases without the masts either. The first two from the Synopsis Historion, the third from the Cantigas de Santa Maria and the fourth from the 12th century Byzantine Sermons of Gregory of Nazianzus, (Pantaleimon Cod. 6 f. 183r.) So, where does this leave me? There seems to be enough evidence to justify having the sails hoisted while the oars are in use - unless the artists just decided "Hey, we've got oars and sails - let's show everything!" However, I'm also up against the problem that when I laid the whole thing out - hull, superstructure etc - belaying points were the furthest thing from my mind. So one pair of shrouds fouls the midship castles, and I'm really not sure if the same thing won't happen with the running rigging. Perhaps I'll just have the thing under oars alone, with the masts and yards stored on their stands above the deck - it's still an option. I need to do some serious thinking about all this. In the meantime, today I've been cleaning up remnants of white glue. I'm a bit over-enthusiastic about slathering it all over the place (still better than when I was 17 - parts of the Great Harry are not a pretty sight). I've previously used rubbing alcohol (otherwise known as isopropyl alcohol or isopropanol) to dissolve glue to remove things I'd glued down, but Liteflight put me onto using it to remove gobs of glue. So this afternoon I got a bit of cloth, a toothpick and some isopropanol and started rubbing the messy bits of glue that detracted from the look of the model, particularly on the gunwale where the oars and pavesades were glued on. And it worked! Looks much better. A fair bit of elbow grease involved, but well worth it. So thank you, Liteflight.

Really enjoying the whole discussion but I have to say I'm also looking forward to the point when you move from the design phase into the actual building process (my coffee's getting cold ).

To be honest, I think it looks pretty good. Remembering that we're all our own worst critics, perhaps it's not as world-shatteringly terrible as you think. If it looks good in a photo (and they often exaggerate faults), I think you can probably feel safe that it's of acceptable quality.

You've done a beautiful job of her, Chris. That's really a model to be proud of.

A single one is a baluster. A unit with railing and balusters is called a balustrade. (Just something I've picked up working in building design). That looks really good, Sweephall. Nice to see the internal details, too.

Well, I certainly wouldn't refuse such a generous offer. I would treasure it.

WAAAAY outside my experience, but it's looking very good, and following the discussion is very interesting. I may never make a model from this period, but finding out the details is fascinating.

It's looking good, Wayne. I don't think I'd have the courage to work with card. To me, wood is much more forgiving .

If you've been using PVA (white glue) you can dissolve it using "rubbing alcohol" (isopropyl alcohol),usually available from supermarkets in the "personal grooming" aisle. It works very well, so long as youallow it time to do its work (and sometimes you need to do it more than once). I use a Q-tip to apply it, but it might be better if you can find an applicator that is a bit more precise.