Louie da fly
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Everything posted by Louie da fly
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Contemporary representations sometimes show the stay fixed to the bowsprit, sometimes to the hull - and sometimes it's hard to tell. The Bodleian Marco Polo picture shows the stay running to the hull and the bowsprit used for braces running forward from the yardarms. A lot of representations show the fixing point at the base of the bowsprit - perhaps fixed to the stempost? The Marco Polo picture certainly suggests that.
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Yes - it's from c. 1325, well into the period when stern rudders were in use. But I agree, a longship with one is quite strange.
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- Helga Holm
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This is wonderful! Yet another of the growing band of people making models outside the general run of the mill. And particularly mediaeval ships (my own particular passion). I'll be following with great interest.
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Yes indeed
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Thanks, Pat. My understanding is that they were beached stern-first, rather than bow, but the principle is the same - in fact it would make it easier to use the windlass to haul the vessel off the beach. But they were so light the stern could apparently be hauled well up onto the beach, which would help protect against changes in the sea direction. And of course the Mediterranean is all but tideless. There were apparently a lot of islands across the Mediterranean with adequate supplies of water and a good beach, and they would have been part of any good skipper's local knowledge. If they were too far away from the next one they could spend the night at sea, but preferred not to. Apart from anything else, it only took a very few days for the on-board water supply to run out. If they were beached stern-first and the anchor was over the bow, the cable would have been stored in the bow rather than the stern. Which is how I've been thinking of all this. However, it seems that there would have been at least one anchor somewhere in the stern - when anchors are so light you can't have too many. The Serce Limani glass wreck had nine of them - six of which were stored one on top of each other in two piles somewhere near the bow. Apparently the ship was caught by a storm near the coast, they dropped the stern anchor to give them a chance to get the rest of the anchors and make sure of her - but the anchor itself snapped before they could, and she was driven ashore. I haven't made that many anchors - only 5 - two catted and fished (one each side) and the rest stored in the bow (even though I should probably put at least one at the stern). Anyway, perhaps I'll have one anchor cable connected to the windlass and the other just vanishing under the forecastle.
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Well it's pretty much accepted that they put in to land every evening if possible - if only to replenish their water supplies (which they used up rather fast - rowing will do that to you). But I have an anchor on each side of the bow - I doubt that both cables would be attached to the windlass. Perhaps if I do it with one cable and have the other one coiled up ready to attach when needed? (In fact I'd probably have it run under the forecastle and pretend there was a coiled up cable there). Which would mean I wouldn't need a hole in the deck leading belowdecks? Maybe I never needed the windlass at all, but I'm committed now . . .
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And probably at the stern as well. Unfortunately kit manufacturers often supply the planks the same width the whole length, when in fact their width varies right along their length to allow for the complexity of the shape of the hull. Adjusting the width is called spiling, and it needs to be done otherwise you end up with gaps between planks at some points and overlaps at others. I'd suggest you have a good read through the planking primers - take your time, until you're happy you understand them (and even then it's possible to make mistakes - don't ask me how I know), and then have another go at your planking. Don't worry - it is possible to get it right! The other thing is it looks like you haven't faired your frames - that is to bevel them at the edges to follow the smooth run of the planks, so the planks rest against a surface rather than just an edge. The edges of the frames shouldn't be at right angles to the frames themselves, they should be at the appropriate angle to let the planks rest smoothly against them. (I hope that makes sense). Planking is probably the most difficult job you'll have in making your model. It's worth putting in the time and study to get it right. You'll be glad you did. And ask questions - lots of questions. Plenty of experienced people here to help you.
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Roter Löwe 1597 by Ondras71
Louie da fly replied to Ondras71's topic in - Build logs for subjects built 1501 - 1750
Exquisite work, Ondras! -
You learn something new every day - if you're not careful! Looping the forestay around the foremast would mean it avoids transferring any forces to the foremast - which if it's very far forward as in Backer's diagrams, would be a good idea.
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- galleon
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The centre of effort should be as close to the centre of resistance (i.e. resistance by the water to the movement of the vessel) as possible. it will depend on the rig and on the shape of the boat - obviously the "sharp end" presents less resistance to the water than the "blunt end" - but it usually means the mast should be as close to the centre of the boat as you can make it. Is the boat to be lateen rigged? If the mast lines up with the centre of the yard, there'll be more force acting on the back of the sail than on the front, because it's a triangle with the small end at the front. That's why the mast on lateeners is often a little forward of centre, and also why the mast often leans forward. See (such a beautiful sail!) and to see a small lateener being rigged: -
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Apart from the awning over the poop deck and the steering oars, everything's pretty much done except for the fiddly stuff. Mark, the anchors ranged from 47 to 67 kg (103 - 147 pounds). Probably two or three people could haul one up without a windlass, but this isn't something I'm qualified to comment on. Any ideas on whether this is too heavy to be hauled up by hand and would have needed a windlass instead? But yes, it could certainly be used to raise and lower the masts as well.
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But (and I'm really showing my ignorance here) it would only be one anchor, right? You only raise one anchor at a time? So perhaps one anchor cable is wound round the windlass from the anchor, and down a hole in the deck (in the photo below it would be aft of the windlass) to the cable locker below the deck. And the other anchor cable goes directly to the cable locker through the same hole? So to put the anchor cable on the windlass, the cable would first have to be untied from the anchor, wound around the windlass and then re-tied to the anchor? (having trouble getting my head around all this).
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Looking good. I agree about the little stands supplied with the kits. A while ago one of our members spent a long time restoring a big model of a steamship for a museum. The ship had turned turtle on its stand and crashed to the floor, with horrible results. Anything that can be done to avoid that is worthwhile in my book.
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- english man o war
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Well that picture certainly suggests the bowsprit was used to cat the anchor. Probably a block would be ok -it all depends on having a block that's robust enough to take the forces involved, and they may not have been all that big. Anchors were fairly small at the time - Byzantine ones were made individually by a blacksmith, hammer-welding individual bits of bloomery iron together to make a whole, and I'm sure the same would have applied in Northern Europe. (I've got quite a bit of information on the anchors from the Byzantine "glass wreck" of c. 1025, found at Serce Limani if you're interested). As far as I know, grapnels on chains attached to the bowsprit didn't come into use until about the 1440's. A number of early 15th century representations show a pennon or flag attached either directly to the bowsprit or to a vertical "flagpole" attached to it - but I think a modest sized cog like yours wouldn't have had one.
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Oh, wow!
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Looks very good. That's going to be a superb model. So the layers on the mast fish are the grain of the timber? Or do I still have it wrong and the fish itself is made of plywood? I take it if you stain it again it won't change anything - that the different colours will still be obvious? I had a look at the red painted fish on the Sea Stallion and because it's a fairly subdued red it actually looks pretty good.
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That's looking very good, Christos. I do know how you feel making all those oars . . .
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That's a very good figurehead indeed. Very much in the spirit of the Viking carvings of this type that have been found in archaeology, and well carried out. Regarding the eyes, most seem to have just been carved into the wood, but there is one, by an unknown artist modernly known as the Academician because of the sophistication of his work, that has little metal plates (probably silver) as the eyes. Not suggesting you try for this level of result at home kiddies, but it does support your idea of making the eyes different.
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I'm rather uncertain about the arrangement for the anchor cables on my dromon. I'm working on putting the anchors in place. Here's a test placement (disregard the way I've tied the rope that fishes the anchor - it's just to keep it in place for the time being). I'm not sure what I need to do with the anchors and windlass - are the anchor cables supposed to be attached to the windlass when the ship is sailing, or is that only for when she's raising the anchors? And if the cable isn't attached to the windlass when under way, what should it be attached to? Should it be tied to (say) the peribolos (pseudo-cathead) and then coiled on the deck? Or what? I suspect this isn't the way anchors were dealt with in later ships and that may introduce uncertainty, but any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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I'm working on putting the anchors in place. Here's a test placement (disregard the way I've tied the rope that fishes the anchor - it's just to keep it in place for the time being). I'm not sure what I need to do with the anchors and windlass - are the anchor cables supposed to be attached to the windlass when the ship is sailing, or is that only for when she's raising the anchors? And if the cable isn't attached to the windlass when under way, what should it be attached to? Should it be tied to (say) the peribolos (pseudo-cathead) and then coiled on the deck? Or what? I suspect this isn't the way anchors were dealt with in later ships and that may introduce uncertainty, but any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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I'd second Jeff's recommendation of a magnifying headset. I use it for all fine work. I wear my normal glasses underneath. It's very good for seeing details I otherwise wouldn't, but it did take a little getting used to. The paintwork is looking very good, at least from the photos. Keep at it. You'll get there with time and patience.
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Thanks everybody. Sceatha, I might just leave it as is. As I've already installed the ropes, I might do more harm than good trying to wax them (wax on - wax off!). It's a shame about the fluffy texture, but it shows up more on the photos than in real life.
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