HMS Diana By Barbossa - Caldercraft - Scale 1:64 - The 1794 Attempt

[Barbossa]

Hi Thunder

 

You  certainly have a point.

If I understand correctly : the angle where you are referring to will be most noticeable where the distance between two shrouds is on its  largest.

( e.g. when there's a gun that separates 2 lanyards )

Even on my build it is noticeable, I must admit.

 

As often : it is check & balance operation : the choice between (as BE mentions) the bulky knots and on the other hand some awkward ratlines.

Nonetheless : this is an interesting debate : which type of knot is most suitable for which scale ( 1/64-1/48-,...) ?

 

[Thunder]

I tend to clove hitch up to about 1:90. At smaller scales than that I tend to simply place the ratline across the shrouds and glue. However, I will scale down the thread as well. Try the black silks used for fly fishing, the thread used for fly tying must be as fine as human hair.

 

When gluing I will create the down ward curves as I work along using super glue. Just be mindful of the harmful fumes. You can of course do this with the standard knot method but I have found that the curve caused by the knot is difficult to overcome.

 

The standard knot is ok for attaching to the first shroud, assuming working from the left, as it curls off correctly. If you then clove hitch the rest. Try it, I don't think the knot size is that noticeable.

[Beef Wellington]

O, before I forget ( as a reply to B.E. ) should we consider building instructions rather as "guidelines" ? ( cfr. "Pirates of the Caribbean ) 

 

Dang Christian, you got there before me!  But couldn't agree more.  I wouldn't dream of doing something so potentially catastrophic as using the ink directly on the ship.  Lovely progress by the way.

 

I found that using overhand knots at either end of the ratlines and clove hitches in between works for me, and gave me the opportunity to put some 'sag' in the ratline which I was looking for.  That seems to be another ratline question - 'sag' or 'no'sag'

[KenW]

Great rat lines.  I use clove hitches; once I get going, I can tie them pretty quickly.

Are you planning any rigging for the ships boats?  Not much information out there on this.

The model is looking outstanding.

[Barbossa]

Hi Ken,

 

thanks for looking in.

About the knots : it's interesting to share different points of view and all are all valuable.

I really appreciate your input, guys.

 

 

The rigging of the ships : I haven't figured it out yet but a lifeboat "somehow" suspended between foremast and great mast is most appealing to me.

Here's a wonderful example :

 

http://modelisme.arsenal.free.fr/artdumodelisme/La%20Belle%20Poule/indexgb.html

 

It's the frigate La Belle Poule by the french modelling expert Bernard Frölich.

The pics are great but I'd like to learn more about this specific rigging scheme.

 

The other lifeboats are to be secured later on.

[mtaylor]

Christian,

 

I'm sure there's a book or two out there...  Maybe this one would help:  http://www.amazon.com/Young-Sea-Officers-Sheet-Anchor/dp/0486402207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1459362735&sr=8-1&keywords=the+young+officer%27s? Since every country and even between ships, the rigging was different, this something that almost has to be sorted out individually.  

[KenW]

Thanks Christian - The method of launching the ship's boats agrees with a model I just saw and the US Naval museum in Annapolis.

What I don't understand is what they did with the blocks, etc. hanging from the main stay and the pendants attached to the two lower yards.  They can't just be flapping there in the breeze.

Anyway, I have lots of time before I get to that point.

[Barbossa]

Hi Ken,

 

Here's what I found from my (limited) sources 

- first pic is the scheme from the AoTS ( Hms Diana ) : parts 20 & 21

- 3 others from W. Zu Mondfeld  ( it is a copy in Dutch)

 

If you compare the  AoTS ( Hms Diana ) photo with the 4th scheme of the second pic ( the one with the title "Takels"), both schemes seem to accord.

Was there a difference between English and Continental systems ? I don't know. 

However the third photo and it's detail ( the 4 th photo) are both schemes that were applied in - at least 2 Mamoli kits - Friesland and La Gloire. Are the Mamoli plans from an historical point of view accurate, that also remains an open question

[KenW]

Hey Christian:  I have that book on order.

I just got, "Seamanship in the Age of Sail", by John Harland.  He has these drawings in Chapter 20.

 

 

On reading the text, I can't figure what was done with the mast stay tackle and the fore stay tackle pendants.  He says that the two yard tackles have "trace lines" that were used to haul them up and then "stopped neatly along the yard out of the way".  He says the (mast) pendants "were permanent fixtures", but doesn't say what was done with them when not being used.  They look much longer than the burton pendants so I don't know if they can just hang there.

Anyway, sorry to clog up your log with these issues.  Probably should be on a separate entry.

Your build is looking great and I'm enjoying following it along.

Cheers.

Edited April 26, 2016 by KenW

[Barbossa]

Hi Ken,

 

Don't feel sorry. On the contrary, this is an interesting topic from which other members might benefit.

Many thanks for these drawings : they seem to accord with some pics from the Bernard Frölich website ( at least when you take a close look at them)

 

Quite rightly, you referred to the Burton pendants : this is another "pending" issue  ( what's in a word  ) to me  .

I went through Ray's Diana buildlog ( completed a couple of months ago ) ,  as I did not understood the purpose of this item, I did not fix them - until now. The more is : the Burton pendants are to be installed on the 3 masts , which only confuses me even more regarding the relationship between the Burton pendants and the tackles required for the lifeboats.

 

Perhaps I should follow B.E. 's advice and purchase Steel's book about the rigging of ships.

 

( Amazon , here I come :) )

 

[KenW]

The Burton pendants were for hauling sails, masts and any other item required.  I don't think they were used for the ship's boats.

They are relatively short and just hang there.  I suspect that the main stay pendants used for hauling out the boats were somehow 'traced' up in a kind of coil or something.  Don't know.

We need more input.

[Sailor1234567890]

More books is NEVER a bad thing. Amazon it up. I'm also curious about what happes with all that rigging when the boat isn't being hoisted in or out of the water. It would take some time to rig that up each time but if you left it in place, where does it end up until it's needed again. If anyone knows, please pass it on. Inquiring minds need to know.

[mtaylor]

I think the answer to the question about all that rigging for hauling boats, cargo, provisions, guns, etc. is "depends".   Not a solid answer but there's variables such as type of ship, country of ship, and even the Captain and  the Master have input.  

 

I've seen some where the line is left run through the blocks and then both ends are coiled and belayed.  The free hanging block has a hook and is set to an eyebolt.  Others, just pull the lines and blocks and not worry about it.  The pendents are usually fixed. I suspect they were coiled on the stay or yard they were attached to.  But again, I've seen where they ran a line through, put a stopper knot and belay the bitter end.  

 

If you can, look for James Lee's book on Masting and Rigging of the English Man of War.  It's very thorough.

[Beef Wellington]

You can find a copy of Steele online along with some other interesting resources here in the public domain...

 

http://www.hnsa.org/resources/manuals-documents/age-of-sail/

[KenW]

Well, I did some more research - I downloaded the Steele book and this is what I found. 

The main and fore stay tackles and pendants, on a small ship (20 guns or so), seem to be attached to the boat.  Photos from Steele:

 

On a recent trip to the US Navel Academy Museum, one of the models had the stay tackles were attached to the boat with the lines attached to the gallows.

Photo of the model:

 

And the John Harland book shows the yard tackle and pendant 'traced' up to the yard. 

Photo from Harland:

 

So, from all this, there may be a solution for a small ship with only one boat.  However, I don't know what happens to the main and fore yard tackles and pendants on a large ship with multiple boats.

Don't know if this helps.

[Barbossa]

Hi Ken,

 

it certainly helps, thanks a lot for your trouble & research.

I really appreciate your input.

 

Also went through the link Jason ( thanks again)  posted here above, and it's a lot of info .

 

Thank you guys !

 

 

[KenW]

Hey Christian.  No trouble; I want to rig the ship's boat on my 20 gun Rattlesnake, so I was doing the research anyway.

Hope I was helpful.

Cheers.

[Barbossa]

Hi all,

 

ratlines are completed but I have some mixed feelings about this.

As the drawing suggets and the pics may show, the shrouds are a bit curved.

 

So here's a question : If I were to space the first ratlines (+/- 5 cm ) and fill up the rest later on and use  clove hitch knots instead of overhand knots, could this "evil" be avoided ?

 

Scissors are at my disposal 

[Barbossa]

Continuation

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Christian, I am currently rattling down the Main shrouds. I think there is a tendency for the shrouds to be pulled in whether you use clove hitches or overhand knots if you are not careful.

 

I am using clove hitches and started by attaching every fifth ratline down from the futtock stage and then in filling.

Even so I found the outer shrouds showing some tendency to curve inwards which entailed some back tracking and re tying the outer ratline on one side. I found stiffening the ratline between the first and second shrouds before securing the the outer ratline helped, constantly rechecking the line.

 

On Pegasus the first six ratlines of the Fore and Main shrouds down from the futtock stave and first six up from the dead eyes did not extend to the first and last shrouds which helped to limit the curve tendency.

 

Once I was happy with the line of the forward outer shroud I sealed the knots and I am now working along the lines aft, adjusting as I go. When I reach the outer aft shroud if there is any inward curve I will undo the hitches and slacken off the tension to release the inward pull and then re-tie and seal using diluted pva before trimming.

 

Regards,

 

B.E.

[Barbossa]

Hi 

 

thanks for the likes. Much appreciated.

However : to me it is not good enough

 

Thanks for your input B.E.

 

The difference between the curve that my last shroud follows ( main mast !)and a ruler hold against it is 5 mm.

I could settle with 2 mm. but 5 is far too much.  So I've made my mind up and ordered for some extra thread .

I'll follow your advice : spacing every fifth ratline and filling up + rechecking.

 

This might take a while and may sound cliché but it's true : if you don't like it, rip is off and start all over again.

There's no damage done.

 

 

 

 

 

[Barbossa]

Hi All,

 

For obvious reasons mentioned in previous posts, schrouds & ratlines required a "make-over"

And Yes ! spacing the ratlines is recommendable !

 

Regarding the futtocks : the horizontal connections are made of brasswire ( 0,5 mm ) painted in black. I was anxious to avoid bulky knots in that area.

Another (possible) advantage of this approach ( at least that is my guess) the brasswire is to prevent ore stabilise any tension of further shrouds coming from top masts. The hooks are by my own making : for some reason I did not like the ones supplied in the box.

[Blue Ensign]

Shrouds and ratlines look spot on to my eye now Christian

 

B.E.

[Beef Wellington]

Very nice Christian, your ratlines are so neat!

[mtaylor]

Looks perfect from here also, Christian.  Your rigging is immaculate.

[Barbossa]

Hello,

thanks a lot for the FB and all the likes.

 

For the ratlines I used the clove hinch knot instead of the overhand knot ( see first version in May 2016) and I took care spacing them. It does make a difference. The curve is hardly noticeable.

I chose for a break of +/- 33 mm and 5 ratlines were to fill up this gap. For aesthetical reason a gap of just 5 mm ( to mention the building instructions ) between every ratline seemed not enough : but that is just me talking

[Sjors]

Just love it !!!!!!!

 

Sjors

[Baker]

Welcome back.

 

And well done !!

 

Groetjes

Greetings

 

Patrick

[Barbossa]

Thanks guys ( and all the likes ! ) 

Next stage : top masts !

[Barbossa]

Hi, at last an update : standing rigging (almost) completed !!

Heres's the pics (part I )

 

Cheers !