HMS Bellona 1760 by SJSoane - Scale 1:64 - English 74-gun - as designed

[Jim Lad]

Just catching up, Mark.  Seriously good work!

 

John

[dvm27]

Like your approach, Mark. Less confusing than drawing several parallel lines on the pattern.

 

I'm sure your projected planks lengths will be fine. I wonder about the joint surfaces mating correctly  after bending. My recently spiled wale planks needed edge bevelling to sit properly at the bow. Will the upper surfaces of the plank joints spread apart while bending? I guess trial and error will tell. Wonder if Gary had any issues here?

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Hi Mark, did you try some of the planking especially in the fore bent section?

Are the drawings precise enough to include the curved areas?

[SJSoane]

Hi Gaetan,

 

I did my best to construct a true projection of the wales in CAD, and I taped a print of this drawing on the hull itself to confirm its shape and length. So far so good.

 

But I do have concerns about what happens to these pre-cut joints when I bend the strakes at the bow. I may have to throw away the ones I pre-cut and replace them with pieces hand-fitted to the space after being bent.

 

And as Greg pointed out, I also need to bevel the edges to fit the curve of the hull vertically.

 

I have to attend a social event today, but I hope to try a first bend of the foremost strakes tomorrow, and see what happens.

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[mtaylor]

Mark,

Given the severity of the bend, you may have lengthen them a bit and then fit.  The outside surface will most likely end up being a bit shorter than the surface against the framing.  I ran into that one and ended up making the planks slightly longer and then filing them square at the join.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Mark, I am going to get up early tomorrow, bend some wood, and then see where I stand. The first planks at the bend are so long that once I get past those, the rest fit fairly snuggly against the hull. So I will only have to remake about 4 per side if they are too short.

 

Druxey, if you are reading, can you remind me how much the first planks are thinned at the fore end to fit the rabbet at the stem? The wales are 8 ½" at their fullest thickness. Every little thinning will help me here!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[druxey]

Planks usually thin to the width of the stem rabbet. Sure will help!

[SJSoane]

John, Greg, thanks for the comments. It is great to be going again.

 

I planned to bend wood today, but it took most of the day to refine the joints and plank widths and thicknesses at the bow.

 

Dumb question; if I glued together the two planks shown, would they separate after boiling them for bending? I can see some value in bending these together, to keep the joint tight. I may also try making a caul shaped to the bow, and use this to ensure uniform bending if I have to do these separately.

 

Mark

[druxey]

No dumb question: is the glue water and heatproof? If not....

[garyshipwright]

Mark when I did mine at the bow I fitted the first top one pinned  in place with out any glue. As you said I made up a piece of wood the had the curve of the bow and after soaking the piece, it was clamp up in the form and left over night  and fitted the next day.  You might also want to put just a little bit more of a curve in the form making sure you have enough curve in the piece. After that make up a file template of the next one using the shape of the first one on the ship it self. Cut out the template, lay on the wood you making the pieces out of, cut to  shape, soak, steam and after a little be of dry fitting pin it to the hull, replace the pins with trunnels/treenails and your done. As far as putting glue on the plank, I just put glue on the trunnel and after you have 75% of the tunnels in place that plank isn't going any where. I don't like gluing the plank to the frames because if you make a boo boo then its a lot harder to get the plank off. With just the trunnel  glued its just a matter of prying up the plank fix the mistake and keep going. Had to replace a few planks on account of mistake, which am sure most of us have a box full. Then you do the next set and then the next set untill you have you wale the length of the hull. I did enjoy putting Alfred's on  and was like putting a jig saw puzzle together.  Of course am not worth a hoot when it comes to putting them together. Gary

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

I see 2 ways to build a model: according to the plan or to the model.

I always build on the model because if I would build according to the plan, It would never fit on the construction site.

[SJSoane]

Thanks, Gary, I will try this. I already cut out the parts based on an expanded planking plan, so we will see how well the jig saw puzzle goes together when it goes on the hull. Some are probably going to be recut. Did you find it helpful to have the batten at the top of the wale?

 

Gaetan, your comment is a good reminder that so much of craftsmanship involves responding to the nature of the materials, and adapting and refining as the form begins to develop. I understand this is how the shipwrights worked, and why they needed relatively few drawings compared to the number of drawings required in our more automated construction processes today. Maybe we enjoy ship model construction in part because it lets us participate in a process when the craftsman's skills and judgement were more important.

 

And druxey, you are right about no dumb questions, but in hindsight it was a question I asked dumbly; the answer does depend entirely on the type of glue, which I neglected to mention. Since I am using yellow carpenter's glue, the answer to my own question is that it will come apart. I am going into the shop to try bending these individually against a former.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Mark

 

[garyshipwright]

Hi Mark as far as running planks against the batten I wouldn't do it any other way. Of course once you get the planks next to it installed you don't need it any more, and can just remove it. I also found out that taken the second row of planiks and clamping them like I have in the photo helps to close the gap and does a really fine job.  Gary

[garyshipwright]

3 hours ago, Gaetan Bordeleau said:

I see 2 ways to build a model: according to the plan or to the model.

I always build on the model because if I would build according to the plan, It would never fit on the construction site.

Hi Gaetan. I have to total agree with you. One thing I have learned and do believe  some one said it, the plan is just a guide to building her, and making a boo boo is just part of it, nothing says that you can't just cut it out and replace it, Am really sure that is what the did back then. Its also how we learn to fit two pieces of wood together. Wood is very forgiving, if it doesn't fit or is cut wrong, just toss it and cut another one. Gary

Edited December 15, 2017 by garyshipwright

[SJSoane]

Hmm, my nemesis, bending 9/64" thick wood...

I cut the former with a greater curve to accommodate spring-back, boiled the pieces for 1 ½ hours, and then clamped them overnight. But as the first photo shows, the spring-back was much more significant than I had planned.

So there are three variables here: 1) the curvature of the former; 2) the time boiling; and 3) the time clamped in the former. 

Before I start experimenting with different curvatures of the former, does my boiling time and bending time seem about right?

 

The good news is that the two strakes I bent at the same time came out with the same curvature, even though one was much longer than the other, and the joints fit well.

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by SJSoane

[michael mott]

Mark, do you have the ability to try bending the part with heat? My understanding is that the heat plays the most important part of this process.

 

Michael

[garyshipwright]

Sounds about right Mark. Another thing, you could do like your doing, then clamp it on the hull, take a very small paint brush lightly wet it down and take your little plank bender heater and heat it. Not sure you have the little heater I have but looks like a little soldering iron with a couple of different tips made for planking. Just a couple of ideals to help get your planks to fit. I take a photo of it which may help.      Gary

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by garyshipwright

[SJSoane]

Hi Michael and Gary,

 

I had that plank bender a few years ago, and didn't have much success first time around. I 'll see if I can dig it out and try that. Michael, you showed a heat gun/soldering setup on on of your posts a while ago. Is that what you use for this?

 

Thanks!

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[druxey]

What specie of wood are you using?

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

I use this one. Wood with water on it works fine.

[SJSoane]

Hi druxey, I got it over 20 years ago from Woodcraft, and it was labeled only as S.A. Boxwood, which I assume is South American Boxwood. Nice to work, very crisp, but is very stiff stuff.

 

Gaetan, I have not had success finding the heating element like Gary showed (it might have been lost or misplaced in my move). Do you have a source for the one you showed here?

 

Mark

[Sailor1234567890]

All the wood bending information I've read says 1 hour per inch of thickness. Seems to me for pieces the size of our ships, 1.5 hours would be much too long. I've never bent wood at this scale though, I do mine much larger.

[mtaylor]

I use water soak for anywhere from 30 minutes to maybe an hour and an old curling iron set on high.  Not the fastest thing but the wood bends and stays bent. The key seems to be to work both sides of the wood and try to get all the moisture out with the heat.  If still springy, jig into shape and let it sit.  Re-apply heat as needed.

Edited December 17, 2017 by mtaylor

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Mark, I bought mine  probably 25 years ago. I do not remember where.

[michael mott]

7 hours ago, SJSoane said:

Is that what you use for this?

Mark yes it worked very well for the task, I found that once the area was heated up it bent quite well.

 

Michael

[druxey]

A rheostatically controlled soldering iron and moisture works for me on Castello boxwood, aka S.A. Boxwood.

[SJSoane]

Santa did not bring a soldering iron or heat gun for me this year, so I turned again to the steam box parts that I had purchased a few years ago. I built a new box out of PVC pipe, scaled down to the sizes of wood I need to bend. I tried one former that was not sharp enough bend to allow for the springback, and then modified the bend more sharply to compensate (see sketch below). The final bend came out just right. I am in business!

 

Mark

[druxey]

Patience rewarded! Neat former/jig work as well, Mark.

[Mark P]

Hi Mark;

 

That looks like an ingenious steamer.  I have the exact same wall-paper stripper,  and you've just given me an idea of what to do with it that the Admiral will probably want to keel-haul me for!

 

Can you enlighten me as to the purpose of the holes in the side of the tube?

 

I also agree with Druxey: very neat and well formed clamping arrangements.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[SJSoane]

Thanks, druxey and Mark, I found a little guidance in the book, The Complete Manual of Wood Bending, by Lon Schleining. It recommended forming a curve around a male form only, so the clamps can progressively and smoothly pull the wood up to the curve. My earlier former tried to capture between two halves, and it did not work nearly as well.

 

Mark, the holes in the PVC pipe are for a row of ¼" diameter dowels 1" O.C., which hold the steaming wood out of the condensed water in the bottom of the tube. The entire tube slants to a drain hole at the end opposite the opening, for getting rid of this water. This all came with the instructions I got with the steamer unit, which I found at Woodcraft a few years ago. There are also a number of instructions online, which would be more reliable than mine.

 

I used a rag stuffed in the opening, fearful of creating a bomb with a tight fitting on both ends. The thermometer only got up to 115 degrees, while I was expecting more; but it seems to have worked. I used the formula of 1 hour per inch of wood, multiplied by 2 for kiln dried wood. Since my wale planks are ⅛", this was ⅛ hour times 2 or 15 minutes. It took about 15 minutes from cold to 115 degrees (I put the wood in the cold tube, before heating up), and then another 15 minutes or 30 minutes altogether from beginning to end. I let it dry overnight in the forms, and hit it with a hair dryer the next day just in case.

 

Slow, but I only have to form curved planks from the wales up to the point where the hull flairs out for the catsheads. I am retired, plenty of time! ;-)

I might make a few more formers based on the first, using a piloted trimming bit in the router table. then I could steam and clamp a number in the same session.

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark